2 Buffet baris: a cautionary tale for bari buyers

9 Comments

1. December 10, 2019 at 7:37 pm 5 years ago

   

   Jordan Robinson

   I can help you. i know that this was done almost a year ago but i am the person who now owns Bari #1. if you still have any questions then you can ask me.

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   1. December 11, 2019 at 9:51 am 5 years ago

      

      Helen

      Hey there Jordan. Welcome to my website! Thanks so much for chiming in.

      I have lots of questions. The first that comes to mind is: Is it playable these days?

      The second is: What’s up with that neck? Did you get a different one? What kind? From what horn? If not, and you use the neck that is shown with the horn, how do you do that? The angle looks pretty awful–in that there is no angle to the neck. Oh, and how is/was the horn’s intonation with that neck?

      I have a ton of other questions, but I’d be thrilled if you answered these. As a Buffet bari owner myself, I’m just really curious about your bari.

      I am actually very glad it didn’t end up in the scrap metal yard. Hopefully it will have a chance to get out and play again one day–if you don’t do so with it already. I am a sucker for a happy ending. 🙂

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      1. December 11, 2019 at 12:46 pm 5 years ago

         

         Jordan Robinson

         Yeah it was actually playable when i got it. things happened. its a whole story in itself. i do play it. played it yesterday actually. with the neck. yeah it is weird. never seen anything like that before. i was trying to find information on the instrument which is how i found this post. never found another example. the neck is long and is sensitive. like there is a specific position i have to put the neck for it to play well. i do have the same neck as you see in those pictures. if you want i can send you audio of me playing it. i dont really know how to describe it. if you have any more questions then please feel free to ask.

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2. March 29, 2019 at 11:04 am 6 years ago

   

   Steve

   When comparing the two Baris – from the photos alone, I note that there are a few things that would tell me to stay away from them unless obtainable at a price much less than that asked for by the seller. Bari#1, if obtainable for under $200 US may be something to work with – if you want to go that route. At least it has a reasonably low price if you aren’t expecting much to begin with.

   Bari #2 being the most questionable of the pair. I say this because of the high asking price and the modern “Made in France 22” stamping below the engraving on this horn.

   The engraving of the company name and address on Bari #2 appears as if done freehand and when reviewed against other “Buffet-Crampon” horns of the time appears accurate however back then engraving was not that poorly done.

   The engraver’s art was just that “an Art” and done with practiced confidence – not what is reflected in this instruments’ engraving.

   See this link for what the engraving of a 100 year old Buffet-Crampon saxophone bell should look like: https://www.saxophone.org/museum/saxophones/specimen/1573/viewAll

   Professional engravers and crafts-persons (there were women who worked in the trade back then and whom were very good at it so I won’t use “Crafts-men”) wouldn’t let work like that out their door, they had more self respect than that.

   Also, take note of the “Blueish” staining on the bell, that is the result of heat. Heat which is used to anneal the metal for easier shaping, or heat which was used to discolour the instrument AFTER something was done to it. It may have been softened in order to more easily put markings. engravings on it.

   Consider the wear patterns on the instrument – a horn nearly 100 years old frequently played would definitely acquire a wear pattern.

   Where are the most frequently played keys? where do the players hands rest? where do you rest your instrument against your leg / body / ? where would the previous player’s have rested this instrument. Do any of the marks on the #2 Bari reflect what you would expect from a “well used” instrument? Has the lacquer been rubbed off similar to what a well used instrument of that age would be expected to have.

   A lot of cheap Chinese knock-offs /fakes of modern instruments are flooding the market but a lot of brass instruments – especially vintage brass – are being replicated in India and Pakistan where the required metal working skills are still in abundance. What they may not have however is the “Stencil” or template used to lay out the tone holes on the body tube or the engraving machinery used to engrave the bells. They can replicate a vintage or modern instrument in polished brass or copper. The tell for these is that in lacquering it and then trying to age it to replicate a vintage instrument the con-artist would have to heat it to artificially age the lacquer and if done with a torch it will be spotty and un-even and the pads will be cooked, drying them out and turning them a dark brown. Very similar to the close up photo of the pad on Bari #2 – which also looks like the cup was “staked” to try and hold the pad in. No skilled , trained and qualified professional trades-person would effect such a repair. But a fraudster would.

   To my eye, Bari #2 may be from the period and it may in fact be a Buffet, – or a buffet knock-off but a lot of what I see says “FAKE” or “ALTERED” to mis-represent what it originally was and to try and get the highest price from an unwary ebay buyer. Frequently these types of instruments will have a phantom bidder – either the vendor themself, or an accomplice – who bids the price up on an ever higher rate until it is astronomical for the actual item being offered. Do they care if they wind up buying the instrument from themselves ? they certainly don’t because the next time the instrument is offered they are sure to make back what they paid ebay in commission and then some.

   Instruments then – like now – were made of Brass, Copper, a mixture of Brass and Copper or entirely Nickel Silver unless they had Sterling necks / bells / keys and in some cases a high grade of pure Silver – but these “pure Silver” instruments tended to be the exception not the rule . The top end models were usually Nickel Silver / German Silver and highly engraved.

   A note on the metals used and the finishes applied. Instruments made without lacquer were and still are easier to repair because their joints can be readily disassembled / reassembled by desoldering and then chemically treated and buffed to remove the discolouration of heating. Lacquered instruments present a problem to the repair technician because if heated the lacquer is damaged and cannot easily be renewed which means that dented bells, bows and necks cannot simply be removed and replaced with new parts but must be knocked out. This is one of the reasons that Brass and Copper is still used – because they are soft and can be easily knocked back into shape. Nickel silver is a hard metal and must be softened prior to re-work or it WILL crack. Sterling / silver is similar, being “hardened” during manufacture and will crack during rework to remove dents etc unless it is annealed prior to repair work and it must be re-heat-treated afterwards to return it to its’ hardened state.

   The solder used on brass and copper has a low melting point and is easily applied – usually without excessive damage to the lacquered areas. Nickel silver instruments use a high temperature silver-solder in their manufacture and repair. Repairing these instruments takes skill and knowledge which is rare today, but these instruments were in fact easier to repair and were more resilient to damage than their brass/copper siblings.

   Even back then instruments were lacquered after being made and buffed to a high gloss – usually marketed to / for the masses. The Lacquer used was usually nitro-cellulose based and if poorly made it would become sticky and come off on your hands. (hint if you use model airplane dope thinner you can remove that old lacquer quite easily). Even a good, well made lacquer will eventually come off.

   Poorly made or well-made lacquer could also be tinted with powdered metals such as gold and silver and then applied to an instrument however this was considered to be the “Cheap Way” of obtaining a certain look and the better instrument makers usually plated their better wares with silver or gold – even the Nickel Silver ones.

   This raises an interesting point when looking at engraving / stamps / serial numbers etc. : Was the engraving / stamping done BEFORE the lacquer / plating was applied or AFTER the lacquer / plating was applied? if done before, the lacquer / plating will cover the markings and the edges will be unbroken, if done afterwards the edges of the lacquer / plating will be cracked and flaking.

   Certain of the marks / stamps may have been made after, but they would have been few and small and would have been covered with a clear lacquer to prevent corrosion and the resultant flaking off of the lacquer or plating that comes with corrosion.

   It must be remembered that “Artistic Beauty” and “Sound Quality” was the goal that the best instrument makers strived for. They also came out with improvements almost overnight and there was a continual struggle to beat the competition. The old catalogs are excellent places to look for those changes as well as the subtle details such as the joint couplings, key placement and types of material, engraving and finish offered.

   The HP / LP markings are well known – as is the fact that instruments made for the European market typically were not marked “HP”, at least not until the production runs became intermixed with instruments destined for the US market and the HP / LP markings went on as soon as the body tube was rolled so that they could be readily identified by the workers making them as well as the people who would be collecting them for shipping to their intended buyers be it a music store, an individual a band or a school.

   Patent infringement was also something that got manufacturers into trouble and they paid heft fines. The background on instrument inventions and patents in Europe, the UK and the USA is a whole story in itself and well worthy of exploring at a later date. Suffice it to say that other than original creations which were later patented, few instruments post the late 1880’s/90’s were made without a “Patented” or Pat’t Pending” or “Brevte” marking of some type. The patents included in the instrument may have even been stamped in the area above / below the serial number on the upper end or the lower end of the body tube.

   Something that is also to be looked for on any product coming from France is the marking “Brevete S.G.D.G” Breveté” means that the instrument incorporates one or more patents in its’ construction. “S.G.D.G” means San Garantie Du Governement” “Patent without a Government guarantee” a disclaimer required by the government stating that the French government does not guarantee enforcement of the claimed patent.

   The repair of “antique” and even high quality “vintage” instruments is truly a specialist repair persons art and trade. Do not expect your local mass-market music shop’s repair technicians to be able to skillfully and professionally repair these instruments beyond simple re-padding and tweaking of keys. They may have a university degree in instrument repair but they have neither the time, interest or in most cases the ability or knowledge gained from old masters that is required to do the job and you do not want to pay them to learn on your prized instrument and ruin it in the process.

   Find a specialty repair shop that has both experience and equipment as well as a reputation for excellent work and then you had better be willing to pay what the job is worth to do it correctly.

   Other than that, finding an old, small town shop loaded to the roof with tools, old used metal and wood lathes and a crochety old person with one or two youngish assistants may in fact be the best place to go. The person running the shop and doing the work might not have a degree and the shop may appear to you to be a mess and not pristinely clean, but they will more than likely have years of acquired knowledge and skill as well as the patience and appreciation for your instrument and do it right the first time.

   That being said, for all of you folks in Vancouver BC Canada based on my experiences over the years I would personally recommend the following repair shops

   Chris Startup – Windworks Musical Instrument Repair
   2225 Turner Street
   Vancouver, BC. V5L 2A5
   Tel 604 728-6481

   and

   Massullo Music
   4242-B Hastings Street, Burnaby, B.C.
   Canada V5C 2J6
   Tel: (604) 294-1777

   and to avoid Long-McQuade.

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   1. April 5, 2019 at 10:08 am 6 years ago

      

      Helen

      Hey there Steve.

      I couldn’t agree more. Finding a speciality shop for your vintage/antique saxophone is paramount. You mention two shops in Vancouver, and both are reputed to do good work. For my 30+ vintage babies, my go-to shop is however,

      Matterhorn Music
      7788 132 St, Surrey, BC
      V3W 0H5
      Tel: (604) 596-7616

      Over the decade + I have used David’s services, I have NEVER been disappointed, and his work is second to none. My horns have never played better, and he has done an exceptional job restoring some of the most unique collectible and rare saxophones without so much as a scratch to their finish.

      He also has the ability to make keys and other parts that look identical to the original. (Like when he made an octave lever for an Adolphe Edouard Sax C-pitched tenor a couple of years ago.) This is vital when parts are missing or broken. In my mind anyway, having this skill is a critical tool in any vintage sax tech’s toolbox.

      With regards to the Evette & Schaeffer bari mentioned in this article, I must respectfully completely disagree with your assessment of bari #2 possibly being a knock-off. Evette Schaeffer horns are not nearly popular enough that a company would go through the time, effort, and money to reverse engineer them. There simply is not enough of a demand for them. That’s why we see knock-off Selmers, Yamahas, Yanis, etc. The demand for those horns is there to re-coup the R&D costs.

      Regarding the engraving you mention, the link you provide is to alto #6389. According to Michael Duchstein’s serial # chart, that sax is from 1885. This pre-dates even my bari #75XX. However, if you check out the engraving on my bari, it looks nothing like that on the alto, but similar to that on bari #2 from 1929.

      As you mention, engraving is an art form, and Evette & Schaeffer was a large company that would have employed more than 1 engraver. Since this is script, and was done in a person’s hand, I would suggest to you that what we’re seeing here are different engravers’ handwriting samples of sorts, in the form of bell engraving.

      Regarding what you mention about patents, when I first got my bari, I did a lot of research. Numerous saxophone historians all looked at it an explained to me that the reason it looks so much like an Adolphe Sax bari, is because it was built soon after Sax’s original saxophone patents expired. If you compare the Evette & Schaeffer (Buffet Crampon) saxophones from the 1880s and immediately onwards to those of Adolphe Sax, you will see that they are pretty much identical. They were basically just copies of Sax’s designs, and as the horns in the gallery linked to above indicate, none were patented.

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3. February 5, 2019 at 1:09 pm 6 years ago

   

   Theo

   The two Baris do not have water keys. It is a real nuisance to turn ta bari around to get the water out of the pigtail. My guess is that the Couesnon monopole 1 was one of the first baris with such a luxury.

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4. February 5, 2019 at 8:59 am 6 years ago

   

   Jayden Alderson

   Whats the difference between HP and LP?

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   1. February 5, 2019 at 4:37 pm 6 years ago

      

      Helen

      About a semi-tone. 😉 No seriously, about a 1/2 a tone. When I play an F# on my HP bari, it reads an F on my tuner.

      I found this really good explanation of HP instruments on a repair tech’s website. I don’t know who Gino is, nor do I know where he is. I had never heard of him before, but he does a good job of describing the LP/HP issue in a way that makes things relatively easy to understand.

      B/C Gino’s website looks pretty old school, I’m going to save the info here for the future:

      Prior to about 1910 the A440 standard to which modern musical instruments are tuned did not exist. The instruments produced before A440 became standard were tuned to a pitch that, in saxophones, at least, is approximately one semi tone (half step) above a modern sax. That is why the modern saxophone is designated Low Pitch and the others designated High Pitch. Since tube length determines pitch, these High Pitch saxophones are, by definition, shorter in total tube length than their modern counterparts. In general, the tube length of High Pitch saxophones is about 10% less than for their modern, Low Pitch counterparts. Until the early 1930s some of the USA sax builders still offered High Pitch instruments as part of their regular line. During the period when both High and Low pitch instruments were commonly produced by the instrument makers, it was necessary to mark each instrument as to what pitch it was tuned. Fewer and fewer high pitch saxophones were produced as time went by, and in the 1930s the high pitch models became completely obsolete. When it was no longer possible to buy a new high pitch sax, the need to mark each instrument was no more, and the manufacturers stopped marking the Low Pitch instruments at that time. There were not many High Pitch horns made in the later years, but there obviously were some. It pays to be certain unless you are a collector of the odd or obscure.

      The notion of a standard of pitch has been an issue for instrument makers for many centuries. Today, we assume that instruments are built to a pitch standard of A=440, but this was not always the case. Many American band instrument makers in the later 19th century followed the general trend of building instruments at a higher standard. By the end of he century, however, the influence of the trend toward low pitch was also evident. As a result, by the beginning of the 20th century until about 1920, American instrument manufacturers were faced with the dilemma of having to accommodate at least two different pitch standards, which were termed “high pitch” (around A=452) and “low pitch” (around A=440).

      In the mid-19th century, as the popularity of bands was beginning to grow, the number of different pitch standards was significant. In the early part of the 19th century, the general pitch standard was as low as A=420 (modern Ab is 415). The standard rose quite dramatically throughout the course of the century so that by the end of the century in some venues pitch was as high as A=457 (modern Bb is 466).

      Woodwind instruments have a long, thin column of air. The lowest note is played with all the tone holes closed when the column is longest. The effective length is changed by opening and closing finger holes or keyholes along the side, all holes closed gives the lowest note and opening the holes successively from the bottom end gives a chromatic scale. The distances between holes are proportioanal to the length of the column of air. These proportions are different between low- and high-pitched instruments. It is for this reason that, while a musician playing on a high-pitched instrument may be able to tune one note with others playing low-pitched instruments, he will still be out of tune with the group when playing other notes. The distances between the holes cannot be changed in either case. There is no satisfactory way to shrink or stretch an instrument made of wood or metal.

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5. January 18, 2019 at 8:08 am 6 years ago

   

   thesaxinfo

   a) If the horn was US made before WWII, assume it’s high pitch, unless you have a mark on the horn saying otherwise, like “L,” “LP,” or “Low Pitch.” The exception to this is either Martin or Buescher — I think Buescher, but I don’t remember — because they never made high pitch horns.

   b) If the horn is a Czech or German horn made during WWII, it might be pitched at A=435hz (you might see “A870” stamped on the horn).

   c) Unless the Evette-Schaeffer is stamped “LP” near the engraving, assume it’s high pitch. The stamp is also very shallow, making it difficult to see.

   d) Assume any French-made model made before WWII is high pitch, unless it’s stamped.

   e) Dolnet made high pitch horns until almost 1970 and didn’t bother to stamp them.

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