… and They’re All Around $1000
For years, I’ve said that students shouldn’t get a vintage horn. There’s just too much that can go wrong with vintage. However, when you’re ready to graduate to a better instrument, you’ll see that the cheapest horn on the market marketed as “pro” is a Taiwanese-made Cannonball for around $1500 and “intermediate” horns aren’t much cheaper. I was pretty sure I could take $1000 or so and get a really good vintage pro horn, throw $400 at it to get it close to good mechanical shape and end up with a horn any pro would love to have. The below horns are the results of my experiment.
Please note that most of the pictures in the below post aren’t necessarily of horns that sold in the “around $1000” range. Hey, $1000 might buy you a great horn, but not necessarily a pretty horn — and I want pretty horns on this blog. However, you need to remember: you’re not playing the shiny. If shiny = a great horn, almost any nickel-plated horn would be a great horn. If the prices are the same, I’d much rather have a Yamaha 855 that’s scratched up over a brand spankin’ new Yamaha 23.
The prices listed below are from closed eBay ads in April and early May 2013. The entries are in order of my preference. YMMV. No warranties expressed or implied, etc.
TOP PICK.
Yamaha’s second professional model was the YAS-62. The 62 has undergone a lot of changes since its introduction in 1980: the plain 62, 62C, 62E, 62II and the current 62III (introduced in 2013). There are a lot of structural differences between the 61 and 62, but the differences between the various 62 models aren’t as apparent, especially the biggest difference: neck design. The biggest difference for buyers is that because of the 62III introduction, the original 62s are quite inexpensive.
Yamaha’s first professional sax, after the purchase of Nippon Gakki, was the YAS-61. It’s an absolutely excellent instrument. Most folks say that the horn sounds a bit darker than the YAS-62 models, but the 61 and 62 share the same extremely good intonation. These horns have hovered in the $1000 to $1500 range for several years now and I find it surprising that there aren’t more folks that own them.
Further Notes ...
The 880 Series Yanagisawas are considered by most to be the start of the best Yanagisawa professional models. My experience with Yanagisawa is only with Vito-stenciled baritone saxophones from the 6-series (appx. 1966-1978) and, while those horns looked virtually identical to a Selmer Mark VI, they didn’t play like them. However, in the successive years, Yanagisawa has become known as having the sopranos and sopraninos of any manufacturer ever and some really kewl looking, extremely expensive horns, like their solid silver 9937 and 992 Pink Gold (PG) horns.
Older Keilwerths have become one of the best buys on eBay, but you have to be careful because they had several models. Newer Keilwerths are incredibly good horns with a very good tone, good intonation and very decent keywork. They also look stunning, which is always a nice plus.
The model immediately previous to the H-Couf Superbas was this beautiful model with a plastic “angel wing” keyguard. These horns play quite well, have good intonation and great tone. The keywork isn’t quite as advanced as on the Superbas, but not bad.
Further Notes ...
The following horns were/are not made by Keilwerth and are not considered professional quality instruments:
* Keilwerth ST90
* Keilwerth EX90 model
* Amati Tonekings,
* Dörfler & Jörka instruments
* The H-Couf Royalist instruments
* The H-Couf 3100/3200.
In other words, if you want to buy a horn you think is a Keilwerth and it doesn’t have that “angel wing” Plexiglas keyguard, you might want to ask someone before you buy it.
Below are the specific Keilwerth model names (and a couple stencil names), in order of top model to bottom model in the serial number range I’m talking about. This is based on research by Helen @ Bassic-Sax.info and me:
* H-Couf Superba I
* Toneking Exclusive (Sometimes engraved “Toneking Exklusive” or “Toneking EX.”)
* Toneking Special (The horn pictured above.)
* Toneking (You want Tonekings made prior to 1970/sn 63751. From appx. 1970 to 1980, the Toneking was marketed as an “intermediate” model.)
* H-Couf Superba II
* New King Special (I’m fairly sure that the Conn DJH Modified 108M and 110M are these.)
* New King (Also note there are numerous stencils of these, like the Armstrong Heritage, King Tempo, and Bundy Special.)
The H-Coufs rank a little higher than their non-H-Couf brethren because the neck design on the H-Coufs was done by Armstrong and Helen says they’re better-made necks.
In other words, there are quite a few things to keep in mind when looking at a Keilwerth. At the very least, you could always pick up a Bundy Special as a backup for very little cash.
A lot of folks forget that Julius Keilwerth had brothers who also made instruments. Max Keilwerth was the gentleman that formed Hohner’s saxophone operations. The horn has been described to me as very “Keilwerth-like.” To me, that means controlled power.
Further Notes ...
I have been hyping the Buffet Dynaction and SuperDynaction (a.k.a. “SDA”) for many years. I owned a Dynaction for a few years and people that owned several high-end Selmers loved playing my horn. Buffet also made stencils of the Dynaction and SDA (the Olds Opera is probably the most recognizable), too. Look for late-model SuperDynactions, too. These horns have the same patented keywork as Buffet’s successor to this horn, the S1.
Further Notes ...
The successor to the SuperDynaction is the S1. These are also extremely good horns for a decent price (about $1500), but note that only horns that have an “A” in the serial number are supposed to play at A=440hz. The other S1s are set at A=442hz. If you don’t have that good of an ear for intonation, it’s definitely something to be aware of.
Finally, the S2 was NOT marketed as a professional model. It’s an intermediate horn that is actually called an “Evette S2” in some markets. Buffet’s last professional horn that they made was the S3. Those horns are still over $2000, used.
This is a horn I’ve mentioned here a couple of times. Let me use a quote from Stephen Howard: “Well, I blew barely five notes on it and wouldn’t have been at all surprised if a gospel choir had appeared out of nowhere behind me and began to sing in exquisite and glorious harmony. This little alto just oozes soul.”
Further Notes ...
I have two concerns: the keywork isn’t exactly modern, which can trip some folks up, and the horns have rolled tone holes, which can be a problem if they’re warped or otherwise not level. The horns made post 1950 (around s/n 10000) seem to be the best.
There have been a couple of iterations of the Leblanc System saxophone, but one thing didn’t change: exceptional intonation. Yes, sometimes the extra keywork is fun to play with, but it’s a secondary thing — until it breaks. It’s a bit challenging to keep the keywork going smoothly, even on the Leblanc horns that had significntly less interesting keywork, like the Duke models (I used one for a brief time in the 1980s). The tone on these horns is also quite lovely and pure, so the combination of tone and intonation generally win out.
The Vito name has a problem: it’s mainly associated with cheap student horns. That’s a bit unfair. It depends on the serial number range and the stamp indicating where the horn was made. It’s my opinion that there really is no difference between the “Made in France” Vito model 35/135 and the Leblanc System horns. I think that the Vitos were just assembled in the US and were intended for the US audience.
Further Notes ...
I mentioned the Vito “made in” game. Vito altos and tenors stamped “Made in Japan” are Yamaha student models. Vito baritones stamped “Made in Japan” are Yanagisawa intermediate horns. Vitos stamped “Made in USA” or “Kenosha, Wisconsin” are made by Vito, USA and most are studentish quality. The exception to this last rule is possibly the rarely-seen Vito Special.
I did a thought experiment with these horns, once: if I bought a semi-beat “Big B” for $100 and decided to have it restored just like the above picture, I’d be out about $1600. These horns have an incredibly tight, richly focused tone and great intonation. The main problem I have with them is that I find the keywork to be less than fantastic, especially the G#/C#/B/Bb cluster. The main reason I don’t have a problem recommending this horn — when completely restored, of course — is because some high school instructors tell you that you can have your choice of two models of sax: a Bundy or a Yamaha. The Aristocrat shares a lot of the look and feel of a Bundy, so here’s a 4x better horn that you can convince someone that is an “early Bundy.”
The biggest surprise for me, when researching price ranges, was that these Aristocrats, which are older than the “Big B” models, are actually more expensive. The reason why is because there’s a mythical thing that some older saxophones are supposed to have — even A. Sax’s instruments when he made them: a parabolic bore. The existence of such a thing hasn’t been conclusively proven, so it’s not something you need to care about. Just worry about how the horn plays. If you compare this horn to the “Big B,” you’ll see some cosmetic changes and that’s probably it. These horns have the same Snap-On pads and same Norton gold-plated screws. Same excellent intonation and tone.
I’m a little wary about including these horns, because these horns can be fairly difficult to control. Additionally, before I played a Conn 30M Connqueror — that’s a 10M Artist (Bb tenor) body with different keywork, and silver-plated touchpieces — I had never met a Conn I liked. Anyhow, the specific ones you want have the “VIII” neck and rolled tone holes. Later horns aren’t bad, but have fewer features.
I was surprised that I could put the Martin Committee (that’s it’s official name; most folks now call it a “Committee III” to reduce confusion) on this list, because these horns were in very high demand — and priced like it — a few years back. You’d buy one of these horns for the tone and tone alone. Or the pretty. The engraving is simple, but quite striking. Unfortunately, Martin’s lacquer wasn’t the best and it’s extremely difficult to find a Committee with original lacquer that’s in good shape.
The Martin Handcraft Committee II is reputed to have the best balance between tone and intonation of any Martin model. They’re also relatively common and are a bit cheaper than the Committee “III.” You might also decide you like the engraving better, too.
Further Notes ...
There are also two horns “associated” with Martin that bear a look: the Olds Super, which was made by Martin or by folks who had made horns for Martin, and the Reynolds Contempora (not to be confused with the SML-made Reynolds Contempora), which is mainly a Committee III … until you see the octave key mechanism, which is basically the same as the Olds Super’s. Unfortunately, these two models aren’t very common.
HN White King Zephyr Eb alto. s/n 285xxx (1947). From TenorMadness.com.
Pictured horn: $800 on eBay.
Several caveats. See “Further Notes…”
One of the most famous saxophones ever available was the King Super 20. The Super 20, however, is a moderately redesigned Zephyr Special. In a very specific serial number range, it’s pretty hard to tell the Super 20, Zephyr Special and Zephyr apart. The horns are also priced really, really nicely.
Further Notes ...
Second, the Zephyr that had the most and best features was produced during a specific serial number range: 275xxx to 305xxx (1945/6 to 1949/50). I wrote a rather in-depth article on this in the past, so I’m not going to repeat myself, but the upthrust really is that there probably weren’t that many bore differences between the Super 20 and Zephyr at that time. The unfortunate thing is that horns in this serial number range are getting quite scarce.
Some Zephyrs also had sterling necks and bells, regardless of whether they were stamped “Zephyr Special” or not. The interesting thing, to me, is that this doesn’t add too much additional cost to the horn — again, provided it’s not stamped “Zephyr Special” — and probably improves the tone, especially on the low end.
The above picture is actually from an eBay ad that closed in 2013. The horn needs an overhaul — the ad mentioned this — but it sold for only $710. From a dealer. Using my standard rule-of-thumb that says that the total cost needs to be lower than $1400, you could get a really good overhaul from a really good tech for $690.
There are a few horns on my watch list, but have a few too many caveats and/or are just too hard to find:
Don’t worry terribly much about the name plastered on the bell. You want a Beaugnier with right-side bell keys. There are a large variety of these and a boatload of high-quality stencils. Check out this article for more.
There’s no major reason not to recommend these horns. The main problem is that there is such a small supply of Beauginer-badged horns that it makes finding one and determining the value extremely difficult. Beaugnier is much better known as the company that made the “Made in France”-stamped Vitos and Noblets — and there are a lot of these. Note that on some of those horns, though, the keywork can be a little difficult to work with and the odd Leblanc-patented mechanisms can slip out of adjustment easily.
Kohlert horns post WWII, up to and through some 57 models, can be a very good choice. However, at some point soon after the introduction of the 57 model, Kohlert’s quality took a big nose-dive. This is because they were trying to work on several stencil contracts that were not exactly financially viable. This makes me a bit wary about recommending “any” 57. However, I can say that some folks have compared the 57 favorably with the Selmer Mark VI. That’s pretty good company.
Another French that’s still relatively unknown. The Royal Jazz versions (pictured) of these horns have additional keywork and a microtuner neck. However, I don’t recommend you buy one. Why? Dolnet horns made up to approximately 1970, when they introduced the M70 model, were available in high pitch. That’s not bad, in and of itself, but Dolnet didn’t mark the horns high pitch. So, without play-testing the horn with an electronic tuner, you’re not going to be able to tell if the horn’s high pitch or low pitch. Additionally, I’ve heard that these horns are difficult to work on, so any repair might cost a tad more.
The major problem I have with Pierret is that I’m a bit unsure what their top-line model was. After WWII, they seem to have had the Standard, Artist(e), Super Artist(e) and (Artiste) Competition. The defining factors seem to have been the microtuner neck, engraving and additional keywork. The problem is, when you look at some of their catalogs, the Super Artist(e) is described with more flowery language than the Competition and it has more features, but the Competition is reviewed as a really good horn. So, while YMMV as to which is the top model, these horns are definitely worth a shot — if you get a chance to play-test one. I would also stay away from Pierret stencils, like the Olds Parisian and Olds Parisian Ambassador, as I’ve heard comments of poor construction on these horns.
I’ve read a bit about the modern incarnation of B&S models (appx. 1991 to 2005). There are essentially two professional “series” of horns: the 2001 (and 2001 “IV”), which includes the B&S 2001, Medusa, Dave Guardala New York, Codera, and some Alloras and the 2006, which includes the LA Sax Chicago Jazz Series and Antoine Courtois models. While most reviews mention that the horns look very Keilwerth-like, overall, they also mention tone is somewhat “warm” (which some people don’t like) and that they’re fairly resistant to play. This being said, these late B&S horns, particularly the Chicago Jazz Series, are quite pretty — although I’ve heard a bit about how the finish wears easily — and they do have a small, but vocal fan base. (There are also a few folks that would mention that you should also take a look at the B&S “gold label” and “blue” label horns.)
First of all, thank you for the clear, concise run down on the several models you’ve posted here on your blog. It was very informative, indeed. But I really could use some advice from someone with the wealth of knowledge that you obviously possess in this realm. You see, I used to play the alto in what seems like several centuries ago. But I have once again been bitten bad and, must admit, actually yearn to play again. I’ve been going back and forth in determining whether to purchase a solid vintage or get a more modern alto. Of course, there are pros and cons to each. One major factor is price. The most I wish to spend on this hobby of mine is about $1500. Tops! I’ve been most interested in, vintage-wise, Buescher Big B. Used modern saxes that have caught my eye are mainly Taiwanese, which include P. Mauriat 67R, Antigua Winds Pro-one and CE Winds Pro Series – specifically Dark Vintage model. Do you have any experience with any of the moderns I’ve named? Are there any others worth considering in my range? Ideally I would love to try them all out in person, but that’s almost certainly not a very probable scenario. So any assistance or advice would be very helpful and most appreciated. Thank you in advance for your patience and consideration.
You’re welcome.
Regarding your list of horns, I do have some experience. I love bullet points, so:
* I did a very brief write up of the Antigua Pro One at http://thesax.info/blog/peter-ponzol-and-the-lyricon-modell-peter-ponzol-and-pro-one. My opinion is that if you’re looking for a modern instrument and you can snag one of these on eBay with the Ponzol mouthpiece for under $1500 (remember the, “It’ll need at least $300 in repair,” eBay rule), that’s an excellent value for the money.
* I’ve played the CE Winds student model for a review and thought it was OK, but it wasn’t even at the level of a Yamaha student model. I told CE Winds that I’d assume that their intermediate model probably was at the level of a student model Yamaha. They didn’t particularly like my comments. So, I’d think that their pro model would be roughly equivalent to an intermediate model Yamaha. That means that the horn would have to be significantly under $1000 for me to be interested.
* I haven’t played any of the P. Mauriat horns. I think their horns are quite pretty and I do know a couple dealers that carry them really do stand behind the, “We’re not going to sell junk horns,” line and that’s why they see the P. Mauriats. Do note, though, that you want as new as possible, as Taiwanese manufacture has really improved even over the past five years. I also did a quick price-check on eBay sold items and $1500 isn’t unreasonable for one, provided it’s in perfect shape.
Personally, I do think that the Antigua Pro One is the best value for the money of the three modern horns you mention. I’d be interested in trying one, at least. However, I might think about a less expensive Yamaha pro model and a nice mouthpiece. Hey, there’s a nice looking YAS-61 on eBay for $1100 (item 232e2308a9).
The Buescher “Big B” isn’t a bad idea, provided that you don’t mind the keywork, you don’t have need of an altissimo F# key and you’re partial to big-chambered mouthpieces.
Admin (if that’s your real name),
Thank you for your prompt and very thorough response. To honor you, I will follow your bullet point format 🙂
I must admit I was surprised by your CE Winds comment. Their Pro Series all sound great in the ads. But of course, they’re being well played by a professional.
Thanks for the heads up on the P.Mauriat in regards to the improved quality on later models. I have read that before else where. But you nailed that point home for me.
As for the Antigua Winds Pro One, the best price I’ve come across was $1700. According to the seller, it was used as a floor model in a well known music store, so I’m not sure how much repair it will require. Regardless, it would be worth the investment, to me, if it is a horn I can grow and progress with.
I have yet to actually see an alto (or tenor) Pro One up close and in person despite my earnest search. I’ve scoured the web and several music shops in my area for any information about the horn – be it good, bad or indifferent. However, what I have encountered of those who have touched, played, or demo’d one, is that they either really like them or simply hate them. There seems to be a pretty well defined 50/50 split among the admirers and detractors, with strong opinions on both sides. Fans celebrate Ponzel’s unique designs and features on this horn as innovative or even genius. While others (haters) describe the same as gimmicky or over compensatory.
I’m also very curious as to how the Pro One will be regarded in the future; sound investment like the Selmer Mk VI before all the buzz, or will it be regarded as merely a curious conversation piece. It’s those vastly polar opinions and my inability to try one that keep me on the fringe of pulling the trigger.
Meanwhile, I will follow your advice and look at some Yamahas as well. They are generally very easily available, even to poor, no talent schlubs like me. Thanks again!
Nice post. This will be good for me when I get a professional tenor sax. The tenor sax I have now is in the shop, and it’s a Yamaha. Unfortunately, that’s all I know about it and I’ve had it for two years now.
Okay, I have one last question for you: Which alto sax would you choose, the Pro One or a late model Buffet Super Dynaction? Hmmm???
Sorry, Andy. I missed the e-mail that said someone posted here. Yes, my account’s “admin.” My name is “Pete.” I think I’ve written that someplace ….
I’d pick a SuperDynaction over a Pro-One. That’s not a knock on Mr. Ponzol’s instrument; it’s a reflection of the time I’ve spent with my Dynaction. I haven’t played the Pro-One, so I can’t say it’s better than an SDA. I do know that the SDA is better than a DA, therefore I’d choose the SDA over the Pro-One.
The one and only closed eBay ad for a Pro-One alto (a former demo horn) was under $2K. They sell new for around $2600. Both are prices out of the range for this article.
You can certainly make the argument that any of the horns I mention above are better than other brand spankin’ new professional horns. That’s going to be up to the player to decide, based on his needs. For instance, I couldn’t justify the extra couple thousand $ for the YBS-62 over the YBS-52. Yes, the 62 was better, but not a couple thousand $ better.
Based on my experience of only a few dozen baritones, a Selmer Mark VI low Bb baritone was the best bari I’ve played. It had the best balance of intonation, tone, playability and keywork. However, you need to note that I preferred playing classical music and I’ve been told that several other baritones are better instruments (Selmer SBA and/or S80 Serie III, SML “Rev. D” and Yanagisawa sterling bell).
Hi Pete:
A great post!
I remember a while ago you discussed the idea of posting a selection of great horns for great prices. This should be an invaluable resource for many.
Many thanks!
Neil
Hi Pete,
I have a KOHLERT 57 Tenor Sax that needs TLC and was wondering if you could possibly help me figure a selling price. It’s been in my attic just taking up space, and I think it would be a wonderful project for the right person. The Model # is K2830 and the serial # is 45696. Safe to say that it needs all new pads, the case has kept it safe, but also needs work. I have pics I can send. And it’s not shiny!
While trying to research an estimated value I was very happy to come across your posts. Man! you are a plethora of information on SAXES!! Lucky me!
Thank you!!
Hi
I’m about to buy my 10 year old grandson his first alto sax (he tried keyboards and loved it but was let down by an unreliable teacher). He has fairly small hands and wonder if you could recommend a suitable instrument. Thanks for the very informative low down on vintage saxes. We live in Scotland if that affects your recommendations.
Regards
John Jones
Before I recommend, please note that some schools require you to buy a specific make, or make and model, saxophone. Being charitable, the reason is because the instructor wants to make sure that everyone has a decent instrument. If you have a private instructor, you should get his input before doing much else. Hey, I’m just some random guy on the Internet, after all.
If you didn’t mention the “fairly small hands” qualifier, I would stand behind all the horns in this article. With that qualification, though, I’ll go off the map a little. Take a look at the Trevor James Alphasax. This horn is specifically designed for kids or folks with very small hands. They’re about 400 Pounds Sterling (not a bad price), they’re very well reviewed, and they’re lighter than a “normal” sax. However — and this is a big point — the sax has a reduced range (low C to altissimop D; a standard saxophone has a range of low Bb to altissimo F or higher) and is missing some additional keywork found on “normal” horns. This will scare some instructors. Me? I probably wouldn’t be teaching anything that would require the extra keywork or extended range for at least a year.
Feel free to e-mail me at thesaxinfo-at-gmail.com if you’d like to talk further.
Hi
Many thanks for your prompt and very helpful advice. It might be a good idea for him to try a “normal” alto to see if his hands are big enough rather than have to adjust later after using the Alpha. I’m a trumpet player, and professional instruments are harder to play than student ones (more resistance). Is this the case in alto saxes? Would he be better with a student model or a used pro model such as the ones in your article above?
Cheers
john Jones
I think it’s a bit of a mistake to label anything one way or another. If, for instance, you were going from a Yamaha 23 student horn to a Yamaha 82Z Custom pro model, you’ll be able to tell that there’s a difference. However, that difference isn’t going to be “harder to play,” it’s going to be more, “This horn is built differently than my Yamaha 23 and I’m not used to playing it.” You could argue — and many folks do — that if you buy a pre-1970 American-made saxophone or pre-1930 European sax, the horn will play better with a really fat (“large chamber”) mouthpiece. If you play one with (say) a brand new Runyon Spoiler mouthpiece, you’re going to find the horn harder to control and/or play in tune.
Unless you can find a Yamaha or Yanagisawa student horn — that’s the 23/24/25/26/275 and 500, respectively — in great shape and at around $600, I can’t see a compelling reason to buy anything other than a used pro model Yamaha or Yanagisawa. It’s just more cost effective.
I’ve got a thread on my forum where I mention that you should put some thought into getting a good saxophone mouthpiece. I think that’s easily as important as the horn, itself. Take a look!
Many thanks for all your help and advice. Take your point too about mouthpieces.