{"id":47463,"date":"2018-09-20T11:06:04","date_gmt":"2018-09-20T18:06:04","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/bassic-sax.info\/blog\/?p=47463"},"modified":"2024-06-25T11:08:07","modified_gmt":"2024-06-25T18:08:07","slug":"a-presumably-max-keilwerth-made-president","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/bassic-sax.info\/blog\/2018\/a-presumably-max-keilwerth-made-president\/","title":{"rendered":"A (Presumably) Max Keilwerth-made President"},"content":{"rendered":"

In search of a lovely Max Keilwerth-made President, or other MK tenor<\/h3>\n

Despite having a lovely collection of vintage horns, there are still a few that I have on my bucket list. One I checked off nearly a year ago, when I brought home the museum-quality Olds Super tenor<\/a> from WWS in October 2017. Another that’s on my list: a Max Keilwerth-made President, or other MK tenor.<\/p>\n

Now in spirit of full disclosure, I do already own two lovely MK horns: a Hohner President tenor and alto. The tenor looks like it was made yesterday<\/a>, while the alto<\/a> does have some miles on it, but sounds like a dream. As a matter of fact, I just took it out over the weekend and tried it with the vintage Claude Lakey Jazz MP I got over the summer, and I fell in love with this alto all over again. That little MK-alto shot to the top of my alto overhaul list.<\/p>\n

Since I have researched MK’s horns as much as I have, and recently had the opportunity to photograph the Globemaster Luxus<\/a> alto, and carefully study its construction<\/a>, I am more interested than ever in perhaps acquiring a tenor made by Julius’ brother before he moved to Germany after WWII to set up the saxophone department at Hohner. Which brings us to the horn I noticed on eBay last week<\/a>:<\/p>\n

A (presumably) Max Keilwerth-made President tenor, in lovely silver plate<\/h3>\n
\"Max<\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

The tenor looks to be in OK shape given its age\u2014although the low Eb key guard is broken off on the one side. The bow appears to have taken a significant hit on the left side, and separated the key guard from its post on the same side. I see some unsoldering, dent work, etc. in this horn’s future.<\/p>\n

\"Max<\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

With regards to a description, the seller writes the following about this President tenor:<\/p>\n

Informaci\u00f3n sobre los Hohner President:<\/p>\n

http:\/\/www.saxpics.com\/Keilwerth\/misc_pics\/hohner\/serials-jim_warner\/Hohner%20Saxophone%20SN.htm<\/p>\n

Plateado.
\nBotones de nacar.
\nO\u00eddos soldados y biselados
\nLlave de trino de Do\/Re – Re\/Re#.
\nLlave de trino de Sol\/Sol#.
\nEn excelente estado de plateado y mec\u00e1nica.
\nZapatillas con resonador met\u00e1lico. Son antiguas, pero cierran bien
\nTiene un peque\u00f1o golpe en la defensa de la llave de Re#. ( Ver foto) No afecta al sonido
\nEn una funda algo estropeada.
\nEl soporte no est\u00e1 incluido.<\/p>\n

Tenor Saxophone President<\/p>\n

Made by Max Keilwerth (Julius Keilwerth brother)
\nThe same model as Hohner President<\/p>\n

SIlver plated.
\nSoldered and beveled tone holes.
\nC\/D – D\/D# trill key.
\nG\/G# trill key.
\nMother of pearl buttons.
\nSilver plate and mechanics in very good condition.
\nThe pads are old, but work.
\nIn a old gig-bag
\nSupport not included.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I reached out to the seller to get the serial number of the horn so that I could include it in my Max Keilwerth galleries, and I got a most unusual reply to my questions. This is what Jose wrote to me:<\/p>\n

Hello, Helen:
\nSorry by my english. Is a Google translation.<\/p>\n

The sax does not have any brand or serial number other than the name PRESIDENT. No serial number. No PURE TONE logo. (This logo also appears to have been stamped on the Max Keilwerth stencil horns, much in the same way that Julius\u2019 Best In The World logo)
\nI have had several Hohner President, Tenor and alto. (I still have a alto with high F# in left hand) and I can assure you that it has the same construction, except for the beveled toneholes and the neck tenon. You can check on the Bassic-sax page that Max Keilwerth produced this model outside of the Hohner brand. Also manufacture others under the name PR\u00c4SIDENT<\/p>\n

Thanks and best regards,
\nJose Luis<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Here are the remaining photos of this (presumably) Max Keilwerth-made President tenor saxophone:<\/p>\n

\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>
\"Source: <\/a>
Source: jlarriola on eBay.com <\/div> <\/div> <\/div> <\/div> <\/div>\n

Mmm…. No serial number and no Pure Tone Trade Mark stamp. How strange… How closely does this President line up with others made by MK? Well let’s take a look and find out.<\/p>\n

The following chart compares some key features of Max Keilwerth-made President saxophones, to those he made afterwards for Hohner in Trossingen, Germany. (First column: current eBay horn. Second column: Graslitz-made horns. Third column: German-made horns.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
Features<\/td>\nPresident tenor sans serial # and MK Logo<\/span><\/td>\nMK-madePresidents pre-Hohner<\/span><\/td>\nHohner-branded MK saxes**<\/a><\/span><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Microtuner<\/td>\nnot present<\/a><\/td>\nPresent on both alto and tenor<\/a><\/td>\nNot present<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Neck brace<\/td>\n“man in the moon”<\/a><\/td>\n“man in the moon”<\/a><\/td>\nreinforced simple brass piece<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Neck fastening screw<\/td>\nwing nut<\/a><\/td>\nwing nut<\/a><\/td>\nround thumb screw with crosshatch pattern<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Tone holes<\/td>\nbeveled<\/a><\/td>\ndrawn & rolled<\/a><\/td>\nbevelled (pre 25XX)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nstraight (pre 25XX)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nrolled (25XX-12XXX)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nstraight (13XXX onwards)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Key Guards<\/td>\neyebrow<\/a><\/td>\nwire cage<\/a><\/td>\n“eyebrow”<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n“eye brow” (post 72XX)<\/a><\/td>\n <\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Bell Keys<\/td>\nright-sided<\/a><\/td>\nright-sided<\/a><\/td>\nright-sided<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Bow Guard<\/td>\nrugged-edged, brass reinforcement<\/a><\/td>\nrugged-edged, brass reinforcement<\/a><\/td>\nprotruding reinforcement<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nsimple, flat brass reinforcement<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Engraving<\/td>\nvery similar to 1<\/a><\/td>\n1<\/a><\/td>\nMost Common<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n2<\/a><\/td>\nextremely rare 1<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n3<\/a><\/td>\nextremely rare 2<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nno President designation<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Logo<\/td>\nnone present<\/a><\/td>\nPure Tone Trade Mark<\/a><\/td>\nHohner Trade Mark <\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nHohner accordian player post 10,500<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Range<\/td>\nlow Bb to high F<\/a><\/td>\nlow Bb to high F<\/td>\nlow Bb to high F (pre-45XX)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nlow Bb to high F# optional (45XX-13XXX)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\nlow Bb to high F# standard (13XXX onwards)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
G# key<\/td>\nwider on horn side and plain<\/a><\/td>\nwider on the horn side with crosshatch pattern<\/a><\/td>\nwider on the horn side and plain (pre-Transitional & Phase 3 horns)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\nwider on the horn side and plain post 73XX<\/a><\/td>\nHohner log & thinner on horn side (13XXX onwards)<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
G# trill key<\/td>\npresent<\/a><\/td>\npresent<\/a><\/td>\npresent until 45xx<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
C\/D trill key<\/td>\npresent<\/a><\/td>\npresent<\/a><\/td>\npresent until 125XX<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
bell to body support brace<\/td>\nstraight brace in the shape of the horn’s posts<\/a><\/td>\nstraight brace in the shape of the horn\u2019s posts<\/a><\/td>\na straight brace that had the shape of the horn\u2019s posts<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
 <\/td>\n <\/td>\n <\/td>\narched piece of brass (13XXX onwards)<\/a><\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

**NB: Since we are comparing this (presumably) Max Keilwerth-made President to other known examples of his horns, and to primarily the earlier versions of the Hohner President, I glossed over the Transitional Presidents that occurred around 107XX-12XXX. I felt that covering details about them wasn’t salient to the discussion of this particular President. <\/span><\/em><\/p>\n

If you would like to read more about the Hohner President, I encourage you to read the page<\/a> I recently rewrote about them for my website.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n

So OK, after all this, did Max Keilwerth actually make this President?<\/h3>\n

If this was a modern or newer horn, the answer might not be so obvious. However, in the 1930s saxophones weren’t being copied by Chinese companies by the thousands. \ud83d\ude09  Furthermore, since this isn’t a Selmer Mark VI, there’s no chance it’s a cheap knock-off of a vintage brand either. \":mrgreen:\"<\/p>\n

Given we can all but rule out cheapened copies of the original, the answer is: Yes, this is a Max Keilwerth-made President. All the bits and parts appear to be the very similar or the same as those found on MK’s horns, with only a couple of notable exceptions:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. It is lacking a microtuner. Although by far and away most MK-made horns had one, a few didn’t. A quick glance through the Max Keilwerth horns that I’ve amassed to date in my Bassic Sax Pix gallery offer up following examples of horns sans micro tuners: Globe alto 2343<\/a>; Globe tenor 2320<\/a>; Melody tenor #?<\/a>; and this New Brunswick International bari 3673<\/a> (not sure a bari would have one anyway).<\/li>\n
  2. It has beveled tone holes, while MK had rolled ones on his horns. But wait, there are always exceptions… Check out the beveled tone holes on the New Brunswick International bari 3673<\/a>.<\/li>\n
  3. The lack of a logo again is the same as we see on the New Brunswick International bari 3673<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    I can’t begin to explain why this horn lacks a microtuner, has beveled tone holes, and why Max Keilwerth didn’t stamp it with his shop’s logo. I might have some theories, but theories are not facts.<\/p>\n

    Based on the latter-designed features it does have however\u2014the eyebrow key guards and the shape of the G# key\u2014it would lead one to conclude that this unstamped President was made later in the factory’s production run of saxophones. Or…<\/p>\n

    If one compares the features of the current eBay horn to the very early Hohner President brochure<\/a> I bought from a dealer on eBay, one is left to wonder: Is this President perhaps a very early Hohner? Its features certainly do line up for that. Even the peaked shaped of the G# key are the same<\/a>….<\/p>\n

    In conclusion then….<\/h3>\n

    I’m a try before I buy it kind of gal. Therefore it is unlikely I will ever get a Max Keilwerth-made President, or tenor by any other name, in my stable anytime soon. That doesn’t mean I can’t be tempted on occasion, and yes, this tenor did tempt me.<\/p>\n

    If this Max Keilwerth-made President tenor sax (or perhaps very early Hohner) is something that tempts you, then you have a few more days to get your bid in. The auction for this horn<\/a> ends on Sunday, September 23. Bids are to start at \u20ac800.00, which eBay estimates to be US $933.56 at the time of writing.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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