My Inbox is regularly flooded with emails from people asking for advice on the purchase of a vintage horn that they’re either considering, or have just made. It is always a little tough to give people information about a sax that I have no first hand knowledge of.
However, what I can do, is give the person some general information about the brand and model that they’re considering—or have just bought—and can at least let them know what kind of sax it is, or what type of player it was aimed at (student/intermediate/pro). I usually conclude by giving them an idea of what similar horns in similar condition have sold for, or by providing them with the tools on how to do this for themselves.
I’m sure that sometimes my answers are not welcome news, but I can’t help that. I just tell it like it is, and link to other sources to backup what I’m saying.
Something I often write in my emails, is my own philosophy about the purchase of vintage saxophones¹. While not necessarily profound, I thought it was worth sharing here, because some of it might resonate with some of you, and help you make a decision about that next, new-to-you horn purchase.
I never buy a vintage horn with the eye to selling it again. I buy it with the intention of playing and keeping it for the long term. So if it needs work, I factor that into my original plan. I know that sometimes I will spend more on the combined restoration and purchase price than it would cost me to get another horn, but I go into that with my eyes wide open. I’m doing so for a reason.
Usually the reason is that the particular sax in question—the one I’m planning on having restored—has a tone that is very different from all my other horns of the same voice. In other words, I would not knowingly restore a tenor for example, that sounds the same, or similar, to another tenor that I already have. The same holds true for any other voice of saxophone as well.
I have extremely high standards for my horns. I use them as gigging horns, so all of them have to be ready to go out and solo and/or front a band on a moment’s notice. That of course costs much more than just having the horn be “playable”.
Currently I’m facing a dilemma with an alto I have. Do I restore it? Do I not? If I restore it, it will cost me more than I can sell the sax for. The problem is, since the horn is currently not playable, I have no idea what the sax will sound like when it’s done. The few notes it can play are really not indicative of what its true tone will be once restored. I currently have 3 very distinctive alto voices, and a 4th would be lovely, but it needs to be totally unique.
I think the biggest, single piece of advice I can give somebody is: Don’t buy a vintage horn unless you’re at least an intermediate player.
Vintage saxes are lovely in their own right, but they are not without their problems. Quirks in intonation and ergonomics are 2 of the biggest reasons why vintages saxophones are not for everyone.
I always recommend that my beginning students start out with a modern horn. Once they have mastered enough of the instrument to understand it well, and have developed a good enough technique that they can play it over its entire range from pp to ff with decent fluidity, then they might consider a vintage sax as their next horn, instead of a modern one.
However, the student would need to have an expressed interest in vintage horns. I certainly would never be the one to suggest that they consider buying one.
With vintage saxophones there is also the pitfall of high pitch horns to watch out for. Just this morning I received an email from someone who sent me photos of a lovely Pierret Super Artiste 47 baritone. The horn is gorgeous. The problem is, it’s HP. The person didn’t know that when they bought it a number of years ago.
My Evette & Schaeffer bari shares a similar story. It too was bought by someone who didn’t know it was a HP horn, and it sat in its case for the last 60+ years.
So while I have a predilection for vintage saxophones, I would remind everyone that they are most definitely not for all players.
While online sources like eBay make vintage horns more accessible than ever before, they also open up the possibility for novice players to get themselves into trouble, by not knowing what they are getting themselves into.
The best way to avoid this potential trouble, is to work with your saxophone instructor and figure out what to do. Don’t let online sources be your only resource.
Online resources can be a really usefully augmentation to your real life resources, but they should never be a substitute for them.
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¹ Just a clarification on language. When I use the term “vintage” horn or sax, I am referring to an instrument that was built as a professional model, to meet what were deemed the professional standards of its day.
One of my former students plays a vintage horn. He was 14 when he started playing sax, but his sax was 80. He has a vintage alto Selmer Super Sax (IIRC) that was a family heirloom. This young guy however, had already played clarinet, so he made the switch to sax very easily, so that may have helped. His 2nd year playing sax, he was asked to play tenor in jazz band, so he was given the school’s Jupiter. What a POS. There was so much wrong with the horn, that he was better off with his vintage alto that was in good repair, than with the modern student model that I was holding together with rubber bands and paper clips. Even when it came back from the repair shop, it was still a POS. I think it had been abused and neglected for too many years.
Personally I’m not a fan of the Yamahas. I would never own one. However, for beginners, the seem to be the most consistant, easy-blowing, and forgiving student horns out there. I find that they hold up the best, regulation-wise, given the rigors that beginners put them through. Nothing is more frustrating than having a saxophone that is leaking, and not being able to play all your notes. The Yamaha’s just hold up better all around, than anything else I’ve seen. If they get damaged, replacement parts are easy to come by as well.
Vintage saxophones on the other hand, require the student to be more careful with them. Besides the ergo and tuning issues, there are also the issues of potential damage, theft, and upkeep. For example, some vintage saxes—I’m thinking of my Pierret here—are very archaic in the way the keys are attached. In order to adjust the key heights or fix leaks on some keys, you have to remove others, adjust the heights or adjust the key, and then reattach all the keys again. Only then can you check if your adjustment was correct. If it wasn’t, you have to start all over again by removing the keys. This is very time consuming, and more expensive than in newer horns.
I always have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a young student with a vintage horn. Where do they keep it while in school? Is it safe? What protects it from being stolen? I also wonder if they truly appreciate the value of instrument they have. Some if these horns are quite rare. When a Yamaha gets banged into the chair or wall I think oh well. If that happens to a vintage Selmer Super Sax, and it ends up with a bent bell lip, I get sick in my stomach.
Even if the student appreciates what they have, it’s likely that the other students don’t. I remember the tricks that were played on band members when I was in high school that involved their instruments. If that kind of stuff was to happen to a vintage horn, I would just be ill.
I completely agree with you that if a student really wants to get a vintage sax, they need to get the advice and help of an experienced player—preferably someone who knows and plays vintage horns—to make sure that they get something that is in fact a good horn, and a good fit for them. I do this for people (mostly my students, but sometimes others as well) all the time.
I have yet to play a good, or even decent, Jupiter tenor. I know they must exist, but I’ve never had one in my hands. Altos, on the other hand… I own two very nice JAS-767s. One I cherry-picked out of a pile of rental returns, the other I just gambled on and got a good one. It’s not AS good as the cherry-picked one, but it’s certainly an adequate backup.
To add, no one i KNOW who is young plays a vintage saxophone except me! All the vintage players I know are middle age players lol.
PS: Go old school and vintage! 😀
Hello Helen.
Yeah I know what you mean. When I was 12 and started to pick up the saxophone for the first time, it was a YAS 23. Lovely horn. In short, I gave up playing it and started again some 2 years ago again and I have been on it since. Probably I was matured enough to be disciplined to stick to a practise routine.
My horn that I actually stuck to playing initially was a SDA/S1. It was such a wonderful horn. Then of course, I did a little saxophone business, and I manage to try other saxophones as well, so in later stage I moved on to a VI, and now I’m settled with a Super 20.
And you’re right on one point. One must express an interest in vintage horns as well. In my university, the kids nowadays are all using modern horns (Series 3, Customs Zs) and I personally don’t know anyone who plays the saxophone in my Uni owes a vintage horn like I do.
Good advice on how the quirks of vintage horns may affect the learning rate of an advancing student (tuning etc.). Still, I would like to point out that vintage horns are not definitely a no-no for starters. Still, one must be adviced to try and purchase with someone whom is experienced. 🙂
I have a beautiful mid-range Chinese-made tenor, brand name “Mercury”. It weighs a ton, has a rich, dark sound, and is mechanically sound. I also have a YTS-21 that I’ve had for near 20 years — sort of. It’s actually a Frankenhorn, as I had to buy another body tube for it after a calamity on a flight from L.A. to Miami. It holds an adjustment only moderately well. It too is a fairly dark horn (not what you’d expect from the Yamaha student horn reputation) but not nearly as much so as the Mercury. It also lacks a high F# key, which the Mercury has.
Guess which one is going to the gig tonight? Yup, the YTS-21. The Yamaha is less idiosyncratic, and does a better job of just getting out of the way and letting me play, though it has distinctly less personality. The Mercury actually reminds me of a vintage horn (which is why I bought it), aside from the mechanism. Unfortunately I don’t play enough tenor to make this an easy transition. If I played tenor as my primary horn, and had only these two to choose from, I’d probably go with the Mercury. When I find its sweet spot, it’s a great horn. It just takes me too long, and I will only play it for one or two songs all night.
I also have a post-buyout Buescher Aristocrat, but it’s just as unique as the Mercury, AND has the disadvantage of lacking a high F#. It also sounds very similar to the Yamaha. Thus, it combines the “worst of both worlds”, if you will. (It’s for sale if anyone cares — it’s not a bad horn by any means, it just has no separate purpose in my arsenal.)
ADDENDUM: I ended up not taking a tenor at all. It was raining and was impractical to take both horns (I play primarily alto with this band) and all my other gear in a single load. Only one tenor tune got called, and I just faked it.
What, it’s raining in California? And we have sunny winter weather here in the Northwest/Southwest (depending on which side of the USA/Canada border you’re on). The end times must indeed be a comin’ … 😉
2012 isn’t all that far away.