A number of months ago I wrote an article about the Arnold Brilhart-designed Rico Metalite mouthpieces. In that post, I mentioned how some players have experimented with making their own baffles, and I offered a suggestion for some materials that could be used if you were interested in trying to turn a regular Graftonite mouthpiece, into more of a hybrid piece, in an attempt to duplicate some of the Metalite’s qualities.
I recently came across a post from MojoBari, on SOTW’s Rico Metalite Fans thread, where he suggested the following materials for homemade baffles:
Start with experimenting with temporary putty. I use poster hanging putty since it comes out easy. But dental wax is easier to shape and stays in better. ~$2, sold near the dental floss, etc. Use a Popsicle stick or something similar to shape it into a baffle that looks like the Metalite baffle shape. You could also use Silly Putty or Play-Doh.
For a more permanent baffle, use epoxy plumbers putty. Or send it out for the work if you do not want to do-it-yourself.
I should note that MojoBari wasn’t referring specifically to doing this on Graftonites. As a matter of fact, he was referring to fitting baffles into mouthpieces with a slim body, but the principle and materials involved apply to all mouthpieces.
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“If you want to create a removable high-baffle for your saxophone mouthpiece, here’s a quick method that works well! Take an old soprano reed, and if you’re working with a tenor mouthpiece, placing the tip side of the reed faciing the mouthpiece tip rail -to replicate a step-baffle. This design boosts airflow speed, giving you a louder, edgier tone. Turn the reed flat side up, cut it to your desired baffle length, and wedge it in the mouthpiece, leaving a small gap from the tip. ( You can as well adjust the height ),cut a small size of a used wine cork as a secondary wedge to place underneath the end part of the reed for extra support, and secure both it with a small amount of shoe contact cement for a firm bond. This setup mimics the characteristics of high-baffle mouthpieces, offering more projection and brightness for genres like rock or funk. Hope this helps! ?” That’s how i turned my large chamber ,low baffle 0.115 to a heavyweight .. best you can file down the soprano reed edges so that the baffle goes down more into the mouthpiece to reduce the brightness ?
Thank you very much Mal-2 for that very helpful guide to baffle making! Would you let me publish this as a post? (I’d obviously give you the credit.) I’d combine it together with bits from the various comments you’ve posted here on the topic.
I think this is an important topic, and deserves to be an article, rather than just a footnote on one. 😀
Hi, ok the results are in, I have made the small modification to my previous mod, that being to add some tin foil to the plastercine. And yes it does give me that buzz sound a little more edge ,I think it sounds good ,but I ask my family and they say it sounds ok too.
But I want to get a recording done of myself playing before I am 100%.
All in all I think this experiment has been a success , so for you budding tinkerers out there, have a go you might be surprised at the result.
😉
That’s great sTuArT that you’ve had success. When you have the sound sample recorded, are you going to post it somewhere? If you do, could you post a link here? Or depending on the size of the file, you could also email it to me, and I could post it here if you like.
OK, Using dental wax for baffle Great!!!!
How??? Can you show some pictures PLEASE>>>>>
Hey ther drjm02. Welcome to my site.
Sorry, I was just quoting someone’s suggestion. I personally have never tried using dental was to make a baffle.
Read what Mal-2 wrote about what he uses to makes baffles. Comment 1. Comment 2. He prefers to use plastilina clay (an oil-based clay that doesn’t dry out).
Maybe Mal-2 would be able to post a photo of one of his baffles if we asked him nice.
Mal-2, do you have any baffles that you could take a photo of? A photo of it in and out of the mouthpiece would be great. (2 comments needed for that since you can’t upload more than 1 pic at a time with a comment.)
If you don’t have any Mal-2, no worries. I just thought I’d ask…helen
I don’t have exactly what I think you’re looking for (sort of a how-to guide in picture form) but I sure can make one. The “out of mouthpiece” picture is not terribly helpful because all the shaping takes place IN the mouthpiece. The only tool you need is a split reed or one from a smaller instrument that fits in the chamber, and that’s only if you insist on your baffle being very flat. With this material, you can also use a soapy fingertip to remove very thin layers (the soap keeps the oil from re-attaching).
The bad thing is that this should be considered “long-term temporary” at best. It’s going to get gunky like any other mouthpiece, and washing with soap and water will slowly break the baffle down. Washing with a brush will destroy it. Fortunately it’s not that hard to form a very similar replacement. Once you figure out what you’re doing, it’s pretty easy to repeat.
To remove, pull out as much as you can with the broken reed and a Q-tip, and wash the rest out with soap and warm water. Hot water works even better, but is bad for hard rubber or resin mouthpieces and possibly plastic ones as well. I’d use hot water on metal or ceramic though, like the Link shown in the attached picture. I wouldn’t do this on a ceramic mouthpiece, for fear that I’d get clay in the pores and never be able to get it all back out — not that this would be likely to affect the sound, but it would affect its appearance.
Good grief !
I had no idea it was so complicated , thanks for the advice.
I have a bid going on ebay for a Rico brass ligature my max on it is £10 inc p&p.If I win it I will let you know how I get on with it.
Have still yet to carry on with the mods to the mouthpiece, been working till late, have had no time to practice. 😡
I think there are many practical concerns to a ligature.
* Does it clamp enough (and in the right places) to make a reed conform to a mouthpiece that is not perfectly flat (because most of them aren’t)? This can vary from one reed to the next, and it is a large factor in “reed friendliness”.
* Does it like to pop off in your hand when you try to adjust the mouthpiece? This is obviously a pain in the ass, but if it has metal holding the reed it could potentially damage the mouthpiece table as well when it slips.
* Does it allow you to make a reed act harder or softer by moving it around (or changing some element) — or maybe you prefer to think of this as opening or closing the tip? This also helps a great deal with reed friendliness, but it is dependent on the shape of the mouthpiece table as well. Obviously, ligatures without screws are not very flexible on this point (except Magnitones, which are adjustable, but a pain to adjust — and string, which can be unwrapped and re-wrapped).
* Does it prevent the reed from shifting side to side, or swiveling? Stock Otto Link ligatures fall down on this one, at least for me. When I do a slap tongue, the reed will often swivel a half millimeter one way or the other. Not good.
* Does it allow for quick reed changes? This can be important on the gig, when you may have four bars to change a reed. Almost every “boutique” ligature falls down somewhat on this point except Olegatures. (I don’t consider Rovners to be boutique, as they are often cheaper than the original.)
* How hard do you have to work to tighten it adequately? Is this enough force to warp or otherwise damage the mouthpiece? This is another negative for stock Link ligs.
* Does it chew up the bark of the reed? Again, the rivet in Link ligatures can do quite a job of this.
* Does it scratch the mouthpiece cosmetically? A poorly-fitted Rovner will chew up the top, and an Olegature on a metal mouthpiece will leave a visible checkerboard pattern. MANY ligatures score poorly in this department, as this is often a trade-off with the second point.
* Does it require a weird mouthpiece cap? Can you get them easily? Does it come with one?
* How fragile is it?
* How much does it cost?
* Is it safe to leave on the mouthpiece without a reed or other protection in place? Link ligs actually aren’t that bad this way — just flip them over so the pressure plate is on the guide bar and they will do no damage.
This doesn’t even touch on whether or not they change the sound!
Hi Helen,
the experiment is being carried out on my Alto, its the one I have a cheap Chinese mouthpiece for. It came with my first alto sax a few years back , never thought it was going to be any good so I bought a Yamaha 4c straight off.
Question : I notice that there is different types of ligature out there some being made from fabric , is there any advantage to this?? :scratch:
Well the answer to that question depends on who you talk to sTuArT.
Before metal ligatures came into the picture, reeds were held onto mouthpieces with string. (We’re talking even pre saxophone days here.) Some classical players still do that. For example, check out this YouTube video that teaches you how to tie a string ligature for a clarinet mouthpiece.
Actually now that I think about it, I think Candy Dulfer used a string ligature for a long time.
Personally, I use Rovner ligatures on all my mouthpieces. (Like the one I uploaded a pic of here.) These are the ones made of fabric, and are held in place with one screw on the top of the mouthpiece. Depending how you tighten it, you can brighten or darken the sound.
Metal ligatures do the job quite well too, and some people prefer them. The difference of course is that most of them are designed so that the screws tighten on the bottom. Some people argue that this reduces the vibration of the reed, thus effecting the sound.
Years ago I remember reading a post by Miles Osland, on the now-defunct Selmer saxophone discussion board. Miles stated that a ligature’s job was to hold the reed firmly in place. Period. He didn’t believe there to be much difference in them.
So to answer your question, it really depends on who you talk to. I always suggest to people that they try different ligatures out in the music store. Take your mouthpiece, reed, horn, and current ligature, and try some new ligs. See if you can notice a difference. I just don’t see the need to spend $100 or more on a ligature. For me, the Rovners do the job just fine, and I do like the idea of having less stress on the reed, therefore less deadening of the sound. (That’s been my experience anyway, but YMMV.)
Does this all make sense to you?
Hi Helen,
right the first results are in and its so far good news.
I applied a small amount of plastercine to the mouth piece,(a little too much to start with).
And have tried to copy the shape of the baffle in one of my other mouthpieces, after some trial and error I believe I have made a fair copy of the shape .
My first attempts I used too much and it was to close to the tip and it didn’t play at all ,so I moved it back from the tip leaving about 3mm or about 7/64′ down the rail, this then played however the sound had a muffled quality so I took out about 1/4 of the stuff out,molded it again and played better but it still had that stuffy sound , again took some out molded it and it now plays with the Buzz sound I was after.
But I can still hear a very slight muting effect ,so a bit head scratching later and I think I have the answer ,,,,I’m going too line the inside out mouthpiece with tin foil this should help reflect the sound and give a nice bright Buzz!
I have yet to try this,, so stay tuned to this space.
One thing I have noticed it seems easier to play and get that low Bb, but it gives a little squeak now and again,?
PS
My Saxophone Tutor liked the sound of the modified mouthpiece, he even said he used to mess around in the same manner when he was learning to play so I’m in good company.
Cheers Stuart
Great to hear that you’re having some positive results for your efforts sTuArT. I’m interested in how the tin foil will work (or not).
So are you trying these baffle experiments for your alto or your tenor?
OOps nearly forgot I have an Alto sax ,I also have a Tenor that has a Yamaha 4c and it also came with a Berg-Larson metal mouthpiece , only trouble with the Berg-Larson mouthpiece is that it makes my fillings vibrate !!
😯
I have a tiny chip in one of my front teeth from the vibration of my stainless steel Berg Larsen tenor piece. It’s not at all noticeable, but I know that it’s there. It happened when I was in junior high. Yes, those pieces vibrate a lot!
Do let us know how you make out with the baffle experiment, and which product works best for you. (If you end up trying more then 1.)
Hi, thanks for getting back to me, yes bluetak sounds like the same stuff you have .
I going to use the cheap mouthpiece that came with my first Saxophone
(never used it,bought a yamaha 4c)
That plasticine Idea sounds good.I wasn’t sure if it would stay in place but it obviously does.
Hope to get some great sounds I’ll keep you posted.
Hi Helen ,I going to start modifying one my mouth pieces and experiment with fitting a homemade baffle , one question what shape shall I make it and how far into the mouthpiece should I fit it. I’m going to use, what we in the UK call bluetak,its used for holding up posters and the like. :scratch:
Cheers mate.
Hi sTuArT. Welcome to my site.
I’m not familiar with bluetak, but have got something similar called Holdit. You can take Holdit out and reshape it and reattach it. Is bluetak the same?
So what kind of mouthpiece are we talking about? For what kind of horn? (S, A, T, B?)
In general, you’ll want to place it in the chamber, just a little ways in from the tip. To start with, I’d try and create almost a smooth table-like structure with a drop like the Metalite mouthpieces have.
Check out this diagram of a mouthpiece’s anatomy to make sure we’re using the same terms (chamber & tip).
After that, I would just experiment with different shapes, sizes, and locations (slightly closer to, or further away from the tip) of the baffle until you get the results you like best.
I don’t know if this has been helpful. If you’ve got any other questions, let me know.
Let me know how you make out, and if you’re happy with any of your experiments.
Regards,
Helen
I use an oil-based clay known as “plastilina” or “plastalina” to make wedges. (In woodwind slang, a baffle is usually permanent while a wedge is temporary, or at least easily removable.) The advantages are that it never dries out, holds its shape well except in very hot water (not something you should use on a hard rubber mouthpiece anyhow), and leaves nothing but a little grease behind when removed. When it gets a bit slimy, as anything inside a mouthpiece eventually will, it cleans up with soap and water and only loses a thin surface layer.
I have been working from the same one-pound block for the last 15 years, and only recently did I find that the bag had a large tear in the side for who knows how long. This seems to have had no effect at all on the contents. I prefer it in black, but it doesn’t really matter since only the player will ever see it. Being a modeling clay, it comes in just about every color you could want, but tan and black are probably the easiest to find.
Thanks for your kind words, Helen:
You are right, I did not know that SOTW would become a full-time job for me!
I wrote of the history of SOTW in my blog:
http://saxontheweb.blogspot.com/2009/01/building-web-site-over-time.html
I would appreciate if you shared some of our common history there as you did above.
I still remember you taking your bass sax as a “passenger” on the flight to Canada.
all the best,
Thanks for referring to Sax on the Web.
Hi Harri. Thanks for stopping by!
You know, it’s hard to believe that I’ve been on participating on SOTW for 10 years already. Where did the time go?
When you started the site, I’m sure you had no idea, what SOTW would eventually become. Congrats on founding what has become the largest on-line resource for sax players on the ‘Net.
See you back over there. 😉
Regards,
Helen
Sounds like me and my car. I pretty well know what’s wrong with it, but I’m not very likely to fix it myself. There was a time when I did, but now I’ll generally pay even if it’s something I could do myself — oil changes, radiator hoses, belts, things that aren’t terribly difficult, just messy and time-consuming.
If I had more valuable horns, I’d probably be willing to provide them with more expensive maintenance. I would have an expectation that the hired work be better than my own though — probably not a tech’s dream! Also some things are outside my capabilities because I do not have the tools (most dent work, for example). Generally I’ll hire that out too, if buying the tools is not reasonable.
Oh BTW i noticed in the “dueling basses” video, one guy is using a guitarist’s footrest to prop up his bass. This works great for playing while seated, and also just works right out of the box.
You are just a fountain full of “fix it” information for saxophones. You never cease to amaze me with the things you have used and experimented with when it comes to your horns.
I’m just the opposite. I take mine to the tech & say: “Please fix it. It’s broke.” (BTW, I do provide more info, but you get the general idea.)
I don’t have the spatial orientation, fine motor skills, or patience to do picky type stuff. I’m good at recognizing what’s wrong, but not always good at figuring out how to fix it, and I totally suck at being able to actually fix it! Hey, it keeps my techs happy!
I use plastilina clay (oil-based modeling clay that does not dry out) for temporary and experimental wedges, and JB-Kwik for permanent ones.
Plastilina has the advantage that it is not as temperature-sensitive as dental wax (washing in hot water will make the surface “drift” a bit, but not melt the whole thing) and it’s also cheap in bulk. I can buy a two pound block for six or seven dollars, give three quarters of it away to artists or other woodwind players, and still have enough to last me for years.
JB Kwik is the five-minute version of JB Weld. It should never, EVER be used as a replacement for JB Weld in anything structural, as it’s far too brittle. Mouthpiece baffles are not subject to any significant stress, and setting up in minutes (as opposed to 24 hours) is a huge advantage. It can be smoothed out while it is setting with either a wet fingertip or a wet craft (popsicle) stick, and once it is dry it sands easily.
The two-part epoxy that comes in a single stick (on TV it’s sold as “Mighty Putty” but it’s also readily available under other names at the local auto parts store) also works well and it is never in a liquid state so it tends to stay where it is put (unlike JB Kwik which needs to be babysat for a little while). It also will grind nicely once it’s set, and can also be manipulated with wet fingers or wet sticks. It is also not as brittle as JB Kwik, but it tends not to adhere to smooth, metallic surfaces as well, meaning the entire wedge might pop out if it were “adjusted” too forcibly. If doing this on a cheap plastic piece, it might be a good idea to rough up the inside a bit before inserting the putty, so that it has something to grab on to.
Just read your wedge article! What does the actual clay wedge look like?My setup is a Cannonball Tenor, Dukoff D7, and Plasticover 3 1/2 reed.
Thanks in advance for any additional info or photos you can provide!
Sincerely,
Chazz