Well I learned something very interesting, and very sobering, yesterday about some of the Hammerschmidt saxophones. This information explains why I could not get my late model, nickel plated Klingsor to play 100% in tune, 100% of the time.
I believed it was a key height issue, so I had my tech try and adjust the heights. But in yesterday’s post I described the frustration that we both faced two days ago when I took the horn in. When playing around with the key heights was unsuccessful, I emailed Uwe Ladwig, a tech in Germany with Hammerschmidt experience.
Uwe has restored a number of Hammerschmidt saxophones, and has also written about the brand—and many others—for the German music magazine SONIC sax & brass. He sent a copy of the Hammerschmidt article he wrote, in which he describes a fundamental design flaw, that can lead to spotty intonation.
According to Uwe, most likely the underlying reason for the Hammerschmidt’s—both alto and tenor—intonation problems, is that the company copied an old version of a neck. This neck had been made of soldered brass. The new Hammerschmidt neck however, was made with brass pipe material that was blown as one piece. Therefore, while the external dimensions were correct, the internal ones weren’t. On the end closest to the mouthpiece, the brass was too thick. While on the horn end of the neck, the material was too thin.
All in all, this was not the news I expected or wanted to hear. However, I thought it was important to mention here as well. I know a number of Hammerschmidt owners are currently in the process of rebuilding their saxophones. Just being aware of this piece of information may save you hours of chasing your tail, in a vain attempt of trying to figure out why things aren’t working the way they should, or the way you expect them to.
Now I should stress, that my Klingsor has been played, and obviously played a lot. The nickel plating has been worn over the thumb rest and hook, and bare brass is showing. This has not been a closet horn.
When I talk about intonation problems specific to my horn, these are issues that many a player could live with. My Klingsor was not out more than 30 cents on any note, and most notes were actually in tune. So you’re probably asking yourself: What’s her problem?
The problem is, I have really high standards. All my horns have to be able to play 100% of their notes in tune, 100% of the time. I’m in the front line of any band that I’m in, and solo a great deal. People hear me. Tuning is not optional.
Some Hammerschmidt saxes may play perfectly in tune. Others may not. When it comes to the Hammerschmidts, there are not absolutes.
I could think of many settings where my sax would be totally acceptable—I just don’t happen to play in any. I will however continue to enjoy the Klingsor in the privacy of my own home, and will also experiment with necks. Perhaps I’ll hit on the magic formula by accident. I hope so, because I love the unique sound that the Hammerschmidt saxophones have.
Hi Helen.
I got a Hüttl alto.
Could you help me identifying if it is an old or new piece?
I’m affraid of that new one-piece neck.
But I suspect that my horn is the old one, ’cause my neck came with the ring (that fits into the body) desoldered.
So, I believe the neck is the soldered one…
Hi Jim.
Well I’d need to see some pics to know for sure, along with a serial # of the horn. Check out this page of my website for info on what types of info allow me to help you the most.
Send the photos to my gmail account. Oh, and yes, photos of the horn are important as well, since that allows me to see what kind of horn we’re dealing with.
Hope this helps…helen
Hi Helen.
I sent you an e-mail to your gmail account.
Thank you for helping.
Kind regards
My Klingsor tenor 06XX is now ready and is playing well. It was a little bit tricky to set the keyheights otherwise it was an easy renovation. But the rods were bad. So almost all long rods are exchanged. I chooce pads with brown plastic resonators à la Selmer (but not Martin Chanu pads). The keys are a lot more open comparing to my Martin saxes. After playing the sax for almost a day i find it:
-Easy to play.
-Dark, round, mellow … sound.
-Good intonation.
-Nice low tones.
When I bouhgt this sax my first intension was to renovate and sell it and do small profit to put into my Rocksaxprojects. Now, I don’t know. This is a rare an very nice sax ….
That’s great news Thomas! Good to hear that the intonation is OK.
Yes, I would think you might want to keep this rare sax. There were only 5,000 of them made. That’s including all the stencil horns that Hammerschmidt produced under the various names.
Hi Helen,
under the paint and the gunk this alto is silver plate and almost pristine there are a couple of tiny dings near the neck strap ring
the keys are all there but they were almost frozen sold and it has most of the original pads on it.(they are in shreds White leather single stitch in the middle)since I am not worried about saving the pads I can use some Penetrating oils that I wouldn’t normally consider using. The red looks like an enamel paint some places were painted very carefully others look like a spill that was allowed to run where ever it went right now I have it hanging on a hook on the porch every day I work the keys and dose it with oil so that when I am ready to really work on it it will come apart with out to much trouble.
I didn’t know where Thomas was that could be a problem depending how much shipping actually is and what the current owner wants for it. I know the horn is not in good shape that is why I said donor horn project horn only if the right pieces show up to go with it. Helen gets ,the neck If it can be found.
I added a picture of the Bruno alto so people can see what we are talking about.( think this is a different frome the ones i sent earlier.
Edit by Helen: If you send me a the picture, I’ll upload it for you Mark.
This is what the Bruno alto looked like when it arrived.
Here it is after a bit of polishing.
Thomas I just wanted to ask is the rest of the sax available? If so I would be interested as a future project horn or a possible Donner to a future project horn.
(I would pm you but your email is not visible to me.)
Helen I have been following your Hammerschmidt saga I have no doubt you will find an answer if there is one. If Thomas is willing please send him My e mail address. PS did youget the pictures I sent of the Bruno alto?
Thanks
Mark
Hi Mark.
The Hammerschmidt that Thomas is talking about will be located overseas. Shipping would be costly.
Yes, I did get the pics of the Bruno. I meant to email you, but as usual, I’m up to ass in alligators at the moment. You have a number of project horns on the go at the moment, but this one is perhap the most interesting. It’s curious how the red colour (paint? lacquer?) got so worn. It must be a very old job.
Yes, it’s for sale. But before we talk further I think I’ll show you some pictures. Just so you know what the sax it’s like! I promised Helen the neck if he can find it.
I found a “heavy beaten up” Klingsor tenor with acrylic keygaurd this afternoon. The owner maybe has the neck in a drawer? If so, I’ll be glad to send you the neck. The sax is goldlaquered.
Thomas
That would be great! Let me know.
Since you are in contact already, perhaps you could find out what the correct specs are. I bet it wouldn’t be too hard to get a bunch of SOTW denizens to pull out calipers and strings and measure their tenor necks — then you would know what other make/model neck might be a good starting point for you. Of course you could try mixing and matching from your other tenors till you find one that works better, too. If the neck’s tenon is too small, Teflon tape works on a temporary basis (though nowhere near as well as it does over cork).
If that Klingsor neck plays well in tune on one body but not the other, at least you’re back in the position you were before — trying to track down just one neck. If it is out of tune on BOTH, then it is probably fit for modification by an expert. If the neck required only slimming (which would be the case if some notes are sharp in the second octave but OK in the lower octave), I’d have a simple answer for you, as I posted here.
Would you mind fixing my two tpyos above? 🙂
(Yes, “tpyo” is intentional, sort of like typing “teh” on purpose. I’m doing it to circumvent Muphry’s Law.)
till you find one what works better — THAT works better
what other make/model neck wight be a good starting point — MIGHT be a good…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law
Your wish is my command. Oh, and while I was at it, I also made your link pretty. 😀
Speaking of pretty, I finally asked my web designer for help in fixing those big ass, ugly white boxes on the top of my Series posts. It’s really obvious on this post, because the Hammerschmidt Series is so long. Suddenly everything looks like it belongs together. FINALLY!
The fix required going into the CSS’s HTML codes, and I don’t have a freakin’ clue what to do with those. My web designer had a few minutes this afternoon to get rid of the eye sore.
It’s actually been bugging me since last summer. I had put in a help request with the plug-in’s author in November, and he replied to me, but I just haven’t been able to get it dealt with until now.
Ah, there in lies the problem… There appear to be no “correct” specs.
Thanks for the link to the solution you’ve found. Very interesting.
I don’t have the horn with me at the moment. It’s still at David’s shop. I left it there together with the Hohner. When it’s done, I’ll pick both of them up. After I’ll start trying different combos of necks/horns. I’m also going to try the alto I have (it too needs a rebuild) to see how it is in the intonation department. I’m curious now.
I’m not too stressed about this whole situation. It is what it is. No horn is perfect. I think I’ve just been spoiled by the vintage saxes that I have. Even my Dörfler & Jörka-stencilled De Villiers (Keilwerth clone) is perfectly in tune when I play it, so I’ve begun to think that there’s nothing that I can’t play in tune. Oops… Not true. 😳 I’ve met my match.
Yes, it is rather disappointing. 🙁
The fact that German is my first language really helped me here. I’m able to read the original articles that Uwe wrote, and am able to correspond with him in his native language. It breaks down a lot of barriers.
Because I have the original articles, I can now properly write the Hammerschmidt section of my site… Something I’ve been wanting to do since the relaunch. And he also sent me all the info he has on Max Keilwerth and the Hohner saxes. (I’m just finishing that page on the site, so this info is very timely.)
As far as the Klingsor goes, I do have some options, and will continue to fiddle with it. But given I’ve got enough tenors right now, I’m going to back burner it for a while. I want to try the older, silver plated one with the acrylic key guards out, and check its intonation. I’m curious because I never paid much attention to it since it needs a rebuild.
That’s so disappointing and on so many levels. It’s amazing that you were able to track down a resolution to this problem.