Yesterday my buddy Pete Hales pointed out a mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax that is currently for sale on the German eBay site.
Source: collie969 on eBay.de
What’s a mystery about this horn, is that it has no model name. Instead, it is engraved with the Julius Keilwerth name where King, Toneking, or The New King would normally be.
Source: collie969 on eBay.de
Nor does it have a serial number, or even the company logo engraved on it. These are normally located under the right thumb rest.
Source: collie969 on eBay.de
What does the seller say about this mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax? Well judge for yourself. He/she does provide both German and English in the ad copy. Unfortunately it is not exactly the same…
Julius Keilwerth Tenorsax aus der Vorkriegszeit zu verkaufen.
Es ist etwas ganz besonderes, da es weder einen JKG Stempel besitzt, noch eine Seriennummer. Das Fehlen ist absolut original! Ich habe Keilwerth daraufhin angeschrieben, aber auch sie konnten mir nicht weiter helfen dieses Sax zu datieren. Es könnte sich um einen Prototyp eines Toneking Modell 1 handeln, oder um vielleicht das erste in Bad Nauheim produzierte Saxophon.
Anders als bei sämtlichen Vorkriegs- und auch Nachkriegsmodellen ist die S-Bogenaufnahme ein ganz klein wenig weiter, ca. 28,1mm. Es besitzt einen hoch-D-Triller und einen Es-Triller und original keine Stimmschraube am S-Bogen.Zustand: Strukturell sehr gut, leichter Silberabrieb, Kratzer vom Ständer und ein paar kleinste Dellen.
Die Oktavklappe am S-Bogen wurde anscheinend nachgelötet, die Mundstücköffnung hatte 2 Risse, die professionell gepatcht wurden und ein neuer Ring wurde aufgezogen. Die Marschgabelhalterung wurde wohl auch nachträglich angebracht.
Es hat neue Polster bekommen, ist frisch eingestellt und spielt sauber und weich von oben bis ganz unten mit dem typischen Vorkriegskeilwerthton!
Nach Absprache kann es getestet und natürlich auch abgeholt werden.
Dazu gibt es einen nagelneuen stabilen schwarzen Koffer.
Sollten mehr Bilder gewünscht werden, oder Fragen bestehen, nur zu!
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Pre-War Keilwerth for sale.
This one is something very special. There ist no JKG stamp nor any serial number visible. And this is absolutely original! I wrote to Keilwerth and spoke to a descendant of Julius Keilwerth, but no one really knew when it had been produced.
So the only thing we found out ist, that it might be a prototype of the Toneking Model 1 dated in the 30s or one of the first or maybe the first sax produced after they moved to Bad Nauhheim.
The main difference to allt Keilwerths is a slightly wider neck receiver (about 28,1mm) and no tuning screw at the neck (original). It does have a D-trill and an Ed trill as all pre-war Keilwerths.The condition is – considering its age and that it survived the war – great. Slight sign of use at the silver plating and some scratches caused by these old stands and some smallest dings.
Unfortunately a non original marching lyre holder has been added, the neck octave key semms haveing been resoldered and two cracks under the mouthpiece cork have been professionally patched and a ring has been added (replacing the original).
It has new pads, is regulated and plays from top to down with ease. Wonderful pre-war Keilwerth sound.
Comes with a new very sturdy black hard-case.
If you have some questions or need more pics, you’re welcome.
Here are the key points to keep in mind about this mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax
- It cannot be the first sax produced after JK moved to Germany. Why? Because it has rolled tone holes. Since Julius had to leave the bulk of his equipment behind in Graslitz, in the beginning JK did not have the equipment to roll tone holes. This is the reason why the earliest German-made JK saxophones had soldered tone holes.
- In English the seller wrote:
I wrote to Keilwerth and spoke to a descendant of Julius Keilwerth, but no one really knew when it had been produced.
- In German he/she made no such claim:
Ich habe Keilwerth daraufhin angeschrieben, aber auch sie konnten mir nicht weiter helfen dieses Sax zu datieren.
- Translated that would mean:
I wrote to Keilwerth, but they could not help me further to date this sax.
- Even if the seller has had the sax in his possession for a number of years, Gerhard Keilwerth (Julius’ grandson) hadn’t worked at JK for a number of years before his death in February 2012. He had operated his vintage saxophone restoration and sales company in Nauheim since 2006. I’m not aware of another of Julius’ descendents working at the current JK.
- This mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax does bear a striking resemblance to this Toneking alto 14942, which happens to have been made in 1939.
- However as Pete mentioned to me, this sax can’t be either a Modell 1, or the prototype of the Toneking. The Modell 1 had a microtuner and left-sided bell keys, while the first Tonekings had split bell keys.
- This is by no means the only mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax that has popped up over the past few years. Remember these two head-scratchers…
- There was this Keilwerth Imperial with its eyebrow key guards and rolled tone holes.
- Then there was this mystery tenor that was also sans model engraving. It had bevelled tone holes and wire cage key guards.
If this mystery J. Keilwerth tenor sax floats your boat, then you have only until tomorrow to get your bid in. The auction ends on October 15.
IMHO the seller’s asking price is quite high. The Buy It now price for this mystery JK is €2,950. xe.com estimates that to be $ 3,734.70 US at the time of writing.
Update: Yup, it’s still for sale. Although the seller dropped the price to €1.045,00—nearly 1/3 of its original asking price—IMHO that is still too high. Let’s see what happens when the auction ends on September 1.
Hi Helen,
Here is another unnumbered JK atributed tenor on ebay named triumpf.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tenorsaxophon-Triumpf-bei-Keilwerth-/161638891186?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item25a26dbeb2
It looks like 1935-1938 by the low C# construction.
Satin silver with polished details, I think I have seen it before,
But with a 4000 euro price tag we will see it a few times
Update: Well the seller has come to his/her senses and dropped the price by nearly 1/2, but this mystery Keilwerth is still for sale. I suspect people don’t want to fork out that much money for something that might be made by someone else.
If you want to take the risk, it will only cost you €,1550 to spin the wheel of chance.
I have the same sax but it was made for Kohlert ,probably in 1938 before the war .Mine is not silver plated but it look nice and diferent.In great working condition .It has The best of the world simbol in the back.
Hello Hector. Welcome to my website.
Interesting. Do you have any other photos of your saxophone you could send me? I’d like to see it in more detail. You can send them to my gmail acc’t.
Thanks…helen
Update: I suspect people are a bit skeptical about the origins of the horn. Not even the Germans are jumping at the chance to buy this—IMO—over-priced, perhaps-Julius Keilwerth tenor.
The horn is still currently for sale, but the seller has dropped the price slightly to €1950.00. (I did say it was a slight price drop.)
I am Monty McAbpys wife. I wanted to lrt your group know he died on Monday suddenly. He loved his sax groups. Thank you.
Iona McAvoy
I’m so very sorry about your loss Iona. This comes as a complete shock. He had just commented on Monday morning around 3:30 am your time. It’s incredible to believe that he and I won’t exchange emails anymore about baritone saxophones, or his beloved Grassi horns.
Monty will be missed. He was a kind man, who was always willing to help out a fellow sax player. Just a few weeks ago he offered to machine a part of me for my new, vintage bari.
My thoughts are with you and your family as you go through this incredibly difficult time…helen
This is pretty much the same as mine Keilwerth Toneking Modell 1 (for sale) http://www.zdenkoivanusic.com/keilwerth-toneking-modell-1-vintage-tenor-saxophone/, but this one is missing microtuner.
Probably one of the first post war made in Kraslice by Amati, before they start to use Amati name and serial numbers.
Looks a lot like those post war Keilwerth’s that Amati made before JK stopped them from using the name.