We’ve all seen them: ads on eBay, Craigs List, Reverb, et al that feature no, inaccurate, or total bullshit descriptions of instruments—often combined with tiny or blurry photos in which you can’t discern any real details. If you really want to sell a horn privately, this is not the way to get top dollar.
Seriously dude, if you want to make some cash off of the gear you are not using, you have to put some effort and work into it. Duh… It’s not rocket science. Not even a 5 digit Mark VI from 1954 is going to bring you top $$ with crap pics and no description, or a line of BS or flowery pose.
Buyers want facts and pics. That’s it. That’s all.
The best private ad I’ve seen in recent memory
A few weeks ago I happened across an ad on eBay for a very vintage Pierret alto. Not just any Pierret alto however. This alto was a Vibrator model, which was the first two-tone Pierret of this vintage that I have ever seen. It was silver with gold accents. It was an absolutely stunning horn.
The Pierret was listed for sale by a German saxophonist. This is how it was described:
Seller Notes: “Just restored and overhauled with metal resonators.”
Model: Vibrator with Virtuor
Key Finish: gold plated
Country/Region of Manufacture: France
Body Material: Brass
Body Finish: Silver-Plated
Brand: Pierret
Exact Year: 1930s
Skill Level: professional
As I want to stay away from building a collection I am selling my freshly restored Pierret “Vibrator” alto which was built in the beginning 1930s with the underslung neck (patented 1929 as “Virtuor”). This one has Pierret´s rare most expensive finish according to their 1938 catalgoue – a gold inlaid engraving and the two tone finish with gold plated mechanic. Pierret Saxophones accompanied me for several years of my professional career, especially for playing in big bands.
In my opinion, the most beautiful model in which the company was able to keep up with its main competitor Selmer in Paris is the “vibrator” model with the “Virtuor” neck, built in the early 1930s. It has a wide bore and large cup and is built very solid. I find it to be the company’s best and most original one which shares more somehow in feeling and tonal response and flexibility with a CONN NW I than other french saxophones I have played.
The L. Pierret company came from the stream of the “music makers association” which was a loose bunch of independent saxophone builders who had worked before with Adolphe Sax, most namely Feuillet who served as the chief of the Adolphe Sax workshop and Millereau who left the sax company and manufactured as early as in the 1860s his own instruments. Louis Joseph PIERRET was born on December 8, 1874 in the fifth arrondissement in Paris, son of Marie Joséphine PIERRET, a servant and an unnamed father. At the time of his marriage, on December 16, 1899, he declared himself to be a luthier and domiciled at 47 rue Piat. He died in Paris sixteenth on August 4, 1952. Louis Pierret was a former worker for the company MILLEREAU et BESSON when he founded his company specializing in saxophones in 1906. There is only scattered evidence on the net as the company did not have such a lasting commercial success and impact.
https://rp-archivesmusiquefacteurs.blogspot.com/2011/03/saxophones-pierret-1906-1971.html
When comparing vintage french saxophones in the 1920s and 1930 it stands out for me that SELMER (as Buffet and Couesnon) experimented early on with a small bore design improving response (particularly in the lower register) and evenness of scale whereas a few other companies including Adolphe Sax Jr. maintained the large wide bore profile longer – like the American companies, particularly CONN. An interesting comparison is for example an early Selmer model 22 or 26 with a Selmer 28 “Large Bore” (after the take over of the Sax Workshop by Selmer) where suddenly there is a different core sound and openness in response. These are in my opinion the most beautiful sounding Selmer instruments.
The PIERRETs of this era are very similar to that concept of a wider bore and bell and maintain a similar almost tenor like quality on their altos. Their mechanical improvements resemble those of COUESNON´s monopoly models maybe the closest, as they also worked with the top soloists in the 1930s (for example Hippolyte Poimboeuf, the tenor saxophone player in Marcel Mule’s sax quartet) before eventually SELMER managed to control the market with their larger resources. PIERRET manufactured only saxophones, no clarinets or other woodwinds and could not invest much in larger building workshops. They eventually lost out during the vast expansion of saxophone manufacturing in the 1930s to bigger companies despite filing numerous patents and improving their design slowly. It stands to reason that the later Pierret models were always trying to keep up with Selmer and Buffet in terms of mechanical improvements but the early models like this one just have quite a lovely broad presence that is hard to find in other french saxophones in the 1930s, only perhaps in SML saxophones later onwards. The front F and ergonomics are original and feel quote modern. The octave mechanism is fine and the intonation tendencies quite balanced, I think that speaks of the high quality of craftsmanship of this builder…
Here is a video of a playtest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAj9YTfbk7Y&feature=youtu.be
This saxophone has a wonderful, warm, large sound with great balance and balanced intonation across the entire range. This model was either an exhibit or made for a soloist, it has a complex engraving that was inlaid with gold and the entire mechanism was gold-plated. The fine jeweler engraving was only used by Selmer at this time for special exhibition models and is very rarely found on other saxophones. It was just freshly overhauled with high quality pads with metal resonators. It comes in a somewhat modern SELMER case from the 1970s as pictured.
You will find good information on the company in the internet – this instrument was owned by a passionate french saxophonist for many decades until his retirement and meticulously cared for, it deserves to have another player dedicated to it who plays it for many years as main instrument.
What makes this such a great ad?
- Although the description is long, it is not simply a glowing, flowery endorsement of how wonderful the instrument is. It is a factual accounting of the instrument’s characteristics.
- Because Pierret is not a particularly well known brand, the seller provides some company history as well. Additionally, he provides links to further reputable online sources about the company so the potential buyers can further research Pierret saxophones for themselves.
- Because this player is very experienced, and has first hand playing knowledge of other, more well known brands, he is able to compare his horn to others that potential buyers are more familiar with.
- The seller provides a link to a YouTube video—since removed—of what they horn sounds like when he plays it.
- The photos are clear, large, and show all of the instrument.
BTW, this Pierret Vibrator alto sold for $1750 US on March 23, 2020. Yup, during the COVID-19 crisis.
How to make your online horn ad a really good one
So to sum up, here are few tips to help you get top $$ for your horn online:
- Clean your sax. Dust it, and clean the water spots off of it. Pledge on a dust cloth works well on water spots on lacquer horns. A silver polishing cloth does the job on silver horns. (You don’t necessarily have to polish your entire horn if it’s silver.) The main thing to remember is not to get any cleaning materials on your pads. That’s why you put the spray on the cloth first, an then use the cloth on your horn. 😉
- Take good, clear, photos that show all sides of the horn. If the number of uploads are limited on the platform you are using, offer to send more to interested buyers.
- Make yourself available so that interested buyers can reach you. I am always amazed at buyers on eBay who cannot be reached during the auction. I always figure they must not be all that serious about selling their horns.
- Provide a good, clear, accurate description of what you’re selling. It’s always a good idea to provide links to sites so that people can do more research about a particular brand if it’s something other than the usual King, Martin, Buescher, Conn, or Selmer models. For example, my site is regularly cited on eBay ads for Hohner, D&J, Couf, Keilwerth, etc, etc for background info.
- Yes, spelling and punctuation matter. 🙂 Use the spell and grammar check in your word processing program. 🙂
- Provide a case.
Given what’s going on in the world right now, things are rather topsy turvy. We have no idea what is going to sell and what isn’t. We have no idea what the economy is going to do.
That said, it only takes 1 interested person to buy your horn. Your job is to find that person, and when you do, to have your product (your horn) looking as appealing as possible, so that it might fetch the highest $$ amount possible.
Something that I have seen and it is disturbing, is instruments being sold as “Refurbished” where the owner has attempted to “refurbish the instrument themselves.
Now, some owners may be fully equipped and capable of “refurbishing” an instrument, these persons are very few. The majority of owners selling “refurbished instruments” , who have done the work themselves in the hope that they can “Flip” the instrument and make a quick profit, should not be trusted . The quality of the work done by “The Ownerr” (and sadly many of today’s repair technicians) should be very closely examined or you may wind up owning an instrument needing extensive / time consuming mechanical work, re-plating, re-padding or even a fake instrument being offered as the genuine article.
Request “Clear” in focus close up photos of the instrument – look for:
1) Dirt in seams and solder joints of what is otherwise a “clean and polished” instrument that was “refurbished”. A good technician doing a refurb of an instrument will have stripped the instrument down in order to replace pads and springs – neither of which last forever. After being stripped down the instrument will have been cleaned – preferably in a large ultrasonic cleaner and subsequently polished as part of the refurbishment. The key-work will also be cleaned and polished in an ultrasonic cleaner PRIOR to being re-padded.
Pads – especially fish skin pads from the ’20’s – ’40’s WILL have rotted and MUST be replaced. The type / brand of pads used in the refurb must be stated. Good pads are not cheap, professional level pads even more so. The repair bill WILL reflect the type and brand of the pads used.
Springs – were in fact made from “steel needles” or flat steel (depending on where used on the instrument) but the metals used – and still used – are prone to work hardening as well as corrosion. Work hardening thru use results in cracking near the spring post. Moisture and saliva from the player, not being dried after use as well as exposure ambient air / being stored in a case that absorbs and retains moisture all results in corrosion of springs. A proper refurbishment will see all the springs get replaced. This WILL be reflected on a the repair bill if it was done and reflects the owners’ care of the instrument.
2) Scratches in the surface of the instrument consistent with someone using a scotch-brite / abrasive pad or steel wool to try and clean the instrument. Normal wear and tear is to be expected and what is being presented should reflect the age of the instrument and its use.
3) Plating and Finish – Plating can and does flake off – but usually from lower quality instruments or instruments made by a manufacturer with poor quality control. That being said, many manufacturers applied and still apply a protective coating or “lacquer” to their instruments after plating them in an attempt to prevent tarnishing / wear of the plating. “Worn” platting appears in areas where the instrument is held or the fingers are applied when being played and in some instances to areas of its case or box and appear as areas where the plating has “Rubbed through” to the base metal underneath. Areas of rub-through are to be expected, especially on very old instruments which have been continuously played. They should not appear so rapidly on well made instruments, but newer instruments made within the past 20 years with areas of rub-through reflect inferior quality of materials / manufacturing processes – even on today’s “Professional” level instruments.
Shellac (NOT Lacquer) is made from the ground up shell casings of an insect dissolved in alcohol. This was and is still used today on instruments. It is NOT permanent, darkens / yellows with age and once dried remains soluble in rubbing alcohol aka “methylated spirit” aka “99% pure “professional grade Methyl-Hydrate” and to some extent the oils and acids deposited from human hands – which is why it tends to be missing in areas touched repeatedly by the players of the past. Shellac is (one of the components) used when applying a “French polish” to wood.
Lacquer – A “Man Made” protective coating more robust than Shellac. Early lacquers were made from a plant fibre (Cellulose Acetate – same material was used in making “Film” ) and will also turn yellow over age. Lacquer also wears off where the instrument was held by the player or rubbed against the player. Lacquer is removed using “Lacquer thinner”.
“Modern lacquers ” i.e full synthetics – developed post WW2 and increasingly used. This type of protective coating was increasingly adopted as it is very durable and long lasting. It also produces a high quality finish at low cost during manufacture. These can chip and flake off as they are brittle.
Both the old and new types of Lacquer coatings may be of 2 types : a) “100% clear” or b) “incorporate pulverised metals and/or tinting”.
Manufacturers using the latter type (b) do so to avoid the cost of plating and rely solely on the material in the lacquer to provide both a metallic appearance and colour. Repair of these types of lacquers is impossible if the instrument requires any work involving the use of a torch. The lacquer burns away leaving the underlying base material exposed with dark blemishes in the surrounding area.
4) Engraving – Early instruments had in many cases hand-engraved artwork and in some cases maker’s marks. Many makers used custom “Stamps” to imprint / emboss their instruments. Some of these engravings / stamps were applied before plating/coating and some were applied afterwards. Good Quality engraving work was usually quite well done and penetrated the metal to a substantial depth.
Originally done by hand, complex machinery was developed that allowed the same quality but faster engraving by use of templates. Modern engraving may be done using a similar type of machine or by laster etching. Laser etching tends to not be very deep. Similarly poor quality machine etching today is also not very deep nor will it have clean lines. Be wary of cheap and poorly applied engraving. Similarly be wary of counterfeits.
5) Keys , Posts and key Hinges – A quality refurbishment will see keys straightened, tone hole s and tone hole pad holders trued-up for proper sealing and clearance and the key-work aligned with the posts. Previous repairs may need to be re-done. Keys should move freely without hindrance or binding. Even “Qualified” repair technicians are known to fail here.
The only way to confirm the freedom of the keywork is to “personally” work the keys with and without the springs hooked to them as well as to play the instrument with the springs hooked up.
When I accomplish repair work I go to great lengths to ensure that the keys and levers rotate smoothly on their rods and pivot pins with no free play and no binding. This can take time to get 100% correct but is well worth the effort in the responsiveness and clear tonality of the instrument.
6) Corking – Similar to the attention to the other parts of the keywork, a quality refurbishment also includes attention to the cork used as padding or spacers for the keys. Not only does “Cork” prevent key-clatter i.e the keys touching the instrument body or other keys, it is also used to adjust gaps required for the timing / spacing of the keys in relation to other keys of the instrument.
Cork dries out and shrinks over time and the key-timing changes, not for the better. The glue holding the cork spacers or padding onto keys decays with time and the cork falls off, usually un-noticed until the instrument “doesn’t play right”.
A professional repair technician will understand this and apply new cork.
An inferior technician and 99.9% of “Self refurbishers” will overlook this aspect of the instrument and instead attempt to bend levers and key arms in an attempt to get the key (or keys) to work correctly, damaging the key(s) or the instrument in the process. As a part of getting the keywork “Perfect”, this also takes time to get 100% correct for the responsiveness and tonality of the instrument.
7) Pads – Unless the make/brand and type of pads used during the refurbishment is stated and good clear photos of the pads are included in the add – or otherwise supplied by the seller, expect to re-pad the entire instrument. I only use Music-Medic supplied “Roo Pads” and resonators and they certainly are not “Cheap” but they definitely are “Excellent” quality pads.
Quality pads are generally NOT used by people doing their own work on an instrument they intend to flip for profit. None of them are going to spend the $$. Equally, their work to install those “new pads” that they got for $5-$10 off of Ebay will not be very good. Their self-installed” pads most likely won’t seat properly, the adhesive may be hot glue, the adhesive may be all of the pads, the pads may be the wrong size (Diameter and thickness). Quite a few instruments show up on Ebay completely disassembled after the person bought it and found they didn’t have what it takes to do the work, and were unwilling to pay to get the work done properly, however they still try to get more than what they paid for the instrument. In some cases substantially more.
Ask specific questions of sellers in writing, get clear and concise answers in writing, know exactly what you are looking at and what is being sold. Get screenshots and save photos of the instrument offered for sale as well as the statements made by the seller.
One the instrument arrives take more photos – duplicate every photo in the sales add and what was sent to you.
If the seller “stated it ” and what you received was not “as described” or pictured by the seller you can hold them to it. Many who “self-Refurbish” and sell online are committing fraud. by making false or inaccurate statements which they know mis-represent the item offered for sale.
Ultimately, the question is “are you willing to take the chance? is the price what you are willing to pay when you can expect to have to “re-do” the refurbishment at your local repair shop or send the instrument away for repairs?”
Are you willing to spend the money on a potential fake or mis-represented instrument.?
Make sure you use an online sales website and a means of payment that allows you, the website or the credit card company – to take action against the fraudster and get your money back or satisfaction in another way.
I have now reported 3 fraudulent sellers to Ebay and have won each of my cases when I have had to pursue this end – one of which was for a 1500$ curved Silver Soprano from the 1920’s sold as “professionally refurbished” out of Germany but which arrived in “other than stated and shown condition”
I was successful in my claim with Ebay in this case by making sure I had all my ducks in a row – even educating Ebay on a few points in the process to make Ebay better for other buyers and sellers.
The Curved Soprano did require “Repairs” resulting from the attempt by the seller to self refurbish the instrument prior to sale, but once it had arrived and had been documented it was proven to be “Not as advertised”. It certainly was a 1920’s curved soprano but the repair work was falsly represented as “professional” when it was not and I was able to document and prove my case.
After what was done to the seller for fraudulently misrepresenting the horn that particular seller will never falsify an add or mis-represent what they are selling again – at least on Ebay.
Hey there Steve. You and I are very much on the same page.
I’ve written a few things that cover much of what you’ve mentioned. I have written a few articles both here on my blog, and also some for my website, that deal with DIY repair jobs, buying horns online, and how to buy a saxophone.
Everything you write is sooo true! Although I have only bought a very few number of my horns online—6 to be exact—only 1 of the ones bought from private sellers rather than established dealers, like PM Woodwind or vintagesax.com, have been as advertised. I “met” the private sellers that burned me through saxophone forums. They had good reputations; and based on how the presented themselves, seemed to know what they were talking about…Sigh…
As far as eBay is concerned, I am glad to see that they now have a seller refurbished category. This at least gives the buyer a fighting chance. They should know what they’re getting…
As I always tell people: Assume that any vintage sax you buy is going to need an overhaul. If it doesn’t, you’re ahead. If it does, then you have already budgeted for it.
Excellent pictures. The Pierret Eflat thrill key is new to me
Sue, it is possible that your Pierret alto needs 3 mm thick pads, instead of the regular 4.2 mm pads wich are used on most saxophones. Exactly five years ago I wrote a post on this subject.
thanks for that info, Theo, I will bear that in mind when I get round to working on the Pierret. Are these thinner pads reasonably easy to find?
As I make my own pads I rarely check which pads are available. 3 mm pads are now mainly made for clarinets. As the clarinet family is large most sizes will be available. Finding 3 mm pads with reflectors could be a problem.
some very interesting links to information about Pierret – of particular interest to me as I have an early Pierret alto currently awaiting restoration. Tjamk you so much for posting this.
Certainly seen plenty of the bad eBay adverts!