A few weeks ago when I bought my Hohner President alto, I mentioned that it was the first alto that I had seen. All the other Hohner saxophones that I had come across had been tenors, and I had asked the question: Where are all the altos?
Usually a company makes more alto saxophones than tenors, so I found it odd that we weren’t seeing any Hohner altos for sale. Did Hohner really make this many more tenors that the ratio is almost 6:1? That can’t be? Can it?
Well this week there were 2 altos for sale on eBay. The first was scooped up at the Buy It Now Price of £375.00, or what eBay estimates to be $589.61 US. It sold so fast that I didn’t even have a chance to write about it.
Source: eBay.com
This alto from the UK was serial #150XX and was a late model Hohner circa 1968. It was nickel plated, had a high F# key according to the seller—although it wasn’t really visible in the photos—and had straight tone holes. (The Hohner Presidents no longer had rolled tone holes starting around serial #12XXX, circa 1963.)¹ If you’d like to see more photos of this horn, you can find them in the Bassic Sax Pix gallery.
The 2nd alto for sale this week on eBay is here in North America. It is a lacquered version of the President, and is pretty much the complete opposite of the one from the UK.
Source: eBay.com
Although the seller doesn’t provide a partial serial number for this horn, we know that it is pre 1953 because it doesn’t have rolled tone holes.
Hohner used rolled tone holes on their saxophones between serial #’s 2600 – 11999, circa 1953 through 1962. This horn has a bevelled type of tone hole, which the seller incorrectly attributes to Martin.
Source: eBay.com
The seller writes:
Vintage HOHNER PRESIDENT alto saxophone. I believe it was made by Martin due to its distinctive tone holes. It has some finish wear, dings and minor dents but overall is a nice horn. It comes with a hard case (not original) and a mouthpiece.
Check out the reviews on the web of the Martin stencils and the Hohner president saxes – they are a great value for the money.
No one stencilled President saxophones. It is a Max Keilwerth Hohner, made in Germany, most likely in the early 1950s.
Unlike the horn from the UK, this one doesn’t have the optional, left palm operated high F# key. Because this was an optional feature that could be requested from the factory, not all the horns had it, and so far it is unclear when this key became available. It might not have been available yet this early in the President’s production run.
Source: eBay.com
What is very interesting is that this sax doesn’t yet have the round thumb screw that fastens the neck into the socket. This alto has a more traditional assembly.
Source: eBay.com
This is indeed a very early Hohner. I sent a note to the seller asking him what the partial serial number was, but he has so far not replied. I hope he does, but I’m not holding my breath.
Although this last photo makes it appear that the sax is almost stripped of lacquer, the remainder of the photos show a horn that still has quite a lot of its original lacquer intact. Like all Hohner Presidents, this alto has a high D# trill key. It also has a G# trill key, which was dropped as a feature of the Presidents in the mid 1950s.
Source: eBay.com
The auction for this Hohner President alto runs until November 23. The sax has a Buy It Now price of $619.00 on it, however the owner is willing to entertain offers. So far no one has made any offers on this vintage German saxophone.
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Hi:
I am from costa rica, and i had found this president sax in the caribean zone in my country…. i had never seen one like this and maybe you can tell me more about this guy…. It has high F# in the LEFT hand…. yes… four keys for the left hand… can you tell me something about its construction, price, etc…
Hello Daniel.
Yes, the Hohner President saxophones had their high F# keys inline with the rest of their left palm keys. If you’d like to find out more about the Hohner President saxophones, check out this page on my website. It is the most complete page you will find anywhere.
As far as prices go, I think you will get a pretty good idea of what they sell for—at least in Europe—if you go to the German eBay site. There are always more there than anywhere else. Don’t forget to check the “Weltweit” box (that means wordwide). And also to see what some have sold for, check the “Beendete Angebote” (that means concluded sales). “Verkauft” means sales.
I hope that helps a bit Daniel. Let me know if you have any more questions….helen
Hi Helen…
Thanks you…. I would love to repair this horn (is in very poor condition) and send you photos of before and after… do you know somebody that have a sax like this for parts? This instrument lacks the key of the D# trill…
many thanks again
Hi Daniel.
I don’t know anyone who has one for parts, but you can usually buy a President pretty inexpensively (that’s relative of course). If your sax is missing parts, I would just try to find one that has all its parts, and then keep yours as a spare parts horn.
If you’re not yet a member of eBay, you should join. Then set up a notification with the US eBay site to have them send you emails for Hohner President alto saxophone, and another one for Hohner President alto sax. You can also set this up with other eBay sites like Canada, UK, etc, wherever you like. However, the US will have the best prices, since European prices are quite a bit higher than North American prices.
I don’t know how much shipping would be to where you live, so that needs to be factored into the cost as well, as do of course any repairs the horn might need. I always tell people to expect eBay horns to need an overhaul. This way if they don’t need one, the end price will be less than expected.
Does any of this make sense? What do you think about what I’m saying?
Update: The very old alto President that I actually wrote about in this post, had quite a hard time selling. The seller’s rather high price didn’t help his cause any—nor did his insisting it was made by Martin, or saying he’s been told it was made by Keilwerth. Neither of course is correct. Max Keilwerth sure, but that’s quite different than a J. Keilwerth horn. However, after a number of times around the eBay wheel, and multiple price adjustments, the sax sold for the reasonable of $300.
BTW, the seller did eventually answer the question about the serial number. Well sort of. This is what he said (but not to my ask):
A Hohner President Alto for sale in Sweden.
http://www.blocket.se/uppsala/HOHNER_PRESIDENT_altsaxofon_ink_SKBvaska_Sele_30917409.htm?ca=23_15&w=3
New pads and according to the owner in good condition. Comes with a SKB case and the original case as well. 5900.00 s e k ca $ 860,00.
My Klingsor is on the same site:
http://www.blocket.se/ystad/Tenorsaxofon_och_trombon_30239626.htm?ca=23_15&w=3
Thomas
It’s funny, until I bought my Hohner alto I hadn’t seen any altos, now they’re everywhere. Have you seen the 2 tone one (silver or nickel with gold or lacquer keys and trim) on eBay right now that’s from the UK? I’m not sure if it’s an original finish or not. It certainly wasn’t a finish Hohner offered as standard, but it could have been a custom order. Or it might have been a finish option that Hohner added towards the end of their production run. The price is on the high side, so I’d be surprised to see it sell for the Buy It Now of 650 GBP (approx. $1,014.78 US).
Your Klingsor is nice. Do you have another sax that sounds similar? Is there any sax you’ve played that you could compare the horn to?
Yep, I wouldn’t be holding my breath for pics though as I am a novice repairer, have rebuilt a couple of horns in the past but that was 20 years ago, but I’ll get some shots to you when I get it together.
I wonder Helen, whether you have heard of any Hohner baritones or sopranos? I’ve not seen any advertised. I presume the Hohner Co would be mostly interested in covering the more popular sax choices at the time.
I remember I was told by a local tech here in Melbourne Aus, years ago, that Max Keilwerth built the baritones for Weltklang but I have never heard of this since, don’t know how likely this would be, maybe your sources have some info about this.
Hi Neville.
Sorry for taking so long to reply. If you’ve read my blog posts for the last couple of days, you can see why.
Hohner didn’t build any soprano or baritone President saxophones. Altos and tenors were the only ones that were designed and built.
There are all kinds of rumours about Weltklang baritones and the Keilwerth brothers. Usually the rumour is that Richard built them. The Max connection is a new one to me. I can set the record straight for you. Weltklang built their own baritone saxophones. End of story. Neither Max, or Richard Keilwerth had anything to do with them.
Where the confusion lays, is that in the early 80s the Julius Keilwerth company had received an order for a great many low A baritone saxophones. J. Keilwerth did not have the production capacity to produce as many baritones as were required, therefore they awarded a sub-contract to B&S. Through this cooperation, quite a bit of know how flowed from J. Keilwerth to B&S, and subsequent B&S baritone saxophones benefited from this new knowledge. However, and here is the important part: Any references on the Internet or otherwise, to Weltklang saxophones being built by Keilwerth are incorrect.
That was a great question Neville. I’m glad you asked it. I know this is something that I’ve been asked to mention in an effort to clear up the misconceptions. I’m thinking this is worthy of its own post, rather than just a comment.
Thanks for the pics Neville. It looks like a lovely horn.
A few things immediately jump out at me. Your sax shares features with the nickel plated alto 15063 that just sold in the UK. Besides it having straight tone holes, and a high F# key, the alto doesn’t appear to have a D# trill key either. Therefore it does appear that Hohner dropped this feature at some point during the later part of its President production run. Although the alto is very close in serial # to your tenor, so it could also just be a serial # thing. We’d have to see some pics of Presidents higher in the 15XXX range, and even some of the 16XXX range, to be able to say for sure that they didn’t reintroduce the key later again.
Another feature that both your tenor and the nickel plated alto share, but that differs totally from the older versions of the Presidents, is the shape of the body to bell brace. The older versions of the President had a straight brace that had the shape of the horn’s posts, whereas yours is an arched piece of brass.
Max Keilwerth died in 1968, and it appears that Hohner continued on the production of Presidents after his death. I wonder exactly when these changes (lack of high D# triller and bell to body brace) were introduced. Were they introduced when the rolled tone holes were dropped in about 1963? Or did they come after Max Keilwerth left the company? Also, I wonder if there were other changes as well, that we haven’t been able to see on the photos that I’ve so far been able to find.
Once your horn assembled Neville, it would be great to have some pics. Hopefully you’ll be able to email them to me then as well. In the meantime, I have some minor changes to make on my main site’s Hohner page.
This is indeed very interesting information.
can maybe see the high F#
Hi Helen, these Hohners regularly pop up on German ebay, couple on there at the moment.
Bought a late tenor 15xxx in two tone myself as a bit of a project…lacquer in excellent condition, had a couple of post pushes taken out and am going to repad it with flat metal resos. Know that probably the late ’50s models are the ones to go for but have had transit damage in past so figured the straight toneholes would be easier to fix!
Doesn’t have the D# trill but has the high F#…don’t imagine THAT will get any work…seems a bit tricky to use.
How did you get on with your Hohner…how does it compare to yr other horns?
Actually do you have a favourite tenor for jazz/R&B?
Hi Neville. Welcome to my site.
Thanks for the heads up about the 2 Hohners on the German eBay site. I regularly check the site, but hadn’t seen those yet. They must have just come up for auction after I checked the site last. The older one, the one that’s mistakenly ID’d as an alto, has a G# trill key. That is rare.
It’s unusual that yours doesn’t have a D# trill key. I haven’t seen one like that before. However, I must admit that I haven’t seen many late model Hohners with straight tone holes either. It is possible that they dropped this feature towards the end of their production run. What is interesting is that does however have a high F# key. This was a feature that had to be custom ordered from the factory.
My tenor has a high F# key, but my alto doesn’t. I don’t find the key difficult to use, but then none of my other horns have a high F# key, so I’m not programed to automatically reach for it with my pinkie or ring finger. The only time I use the key is when I play chromatic passages up or down the left palm keys. The rest of time I use my altissimo fingering using the front F key that I’ve used on all my other saxes forever.
I find that the Hohner has that great big, dark, 1950s German saxophone sound that is a quintessential smokey jazz bar sound. The horn has an amazing subtone. I plan to use my sax for jazz. It is too dark, and not projecting and bright enough for the blues band that I work it—at least compared to the other horn choices I have. For my blues and rock work I use the 307XXX naturally delacquered Zephyr circa 1950 that I got from Sarge at World Wide Sax in fall 2009. I play tested the horn before it was rebuilt, and knew immediately that it was my horn. It replaced my Mark VI tenor that had been my main tenor since I got it in the early 80s. My Selmer is now my backup horn for most styles I play.
I haven’t yet had a chance to get my Hohner alto into the David’s shop, but I need to do that some time soon. Since I’m not currently needing it, I’ve been slow on getting it there. I’ve told David that I don’t need it back in a hurry, so he can fit it in whenever he has time. (This will help keep my costs down as well.) The other thing the horn needs is a new case. I figure by the time it is done, it will have cost me about twice as much as what I could sell it for. I’ll have to book some jazz gigs so it can pay for itself. 😆
I’d be very curious to see what your Hohner minus a D# trill key and with straight tone holes looks like. If you have some photos that you’d care to share for my gallery, I’d really appreciate it. You could send them to my gmail account.
Thanks for stopping in Neville. Please let me know how your horn progresses through the rebuild phase.
Regards,
Helen
I only have the photos from the ebay auction as it’s all in bits now…sorry can’t send to your email as I have something weird happening with Word and Outlook…I’ll attach a couple here anyway. I’ll put it together with flat metal resos, maybe it won’t be too dark then?
oh…they come out too small sorry
Last summer I saw a Czech made Toneking (Keilwerth) for sale, also with soldered on toneholes. The sax was made after WWII.
Here is a Toneking for sale here in Sweden. Is this German made?
http://www.blocket.se/blekinge/Toneking_saxofon_30311198.htm?ca=23_15&w=3.
BTW, I have my Klingsor tenor for sale at the same site.
Hi Thomas.
Well after some detective work this morning I can tell you without a doubt that this horn is indeed not German made. Is was made in Graslitz, so it is Czech. According to the Keilwerth serial number chart published on Saxwelt, this horn would have been made in 1937. According to the research documents provided to me by Uwe Ladwing, the J. Keilwerth family was relocated out of Graslitz to Nauheim in 1945.
The other thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that these Hohner Presidents are not J. Keilwerth horns. Julius Keilwerth had nothing to do with them. It was his brother Max Keilwerth who designed them, and oversaw their production for Hohner.
There were in fact 3 Keilwerth brother: Julius, Max, & Richard. And while they may have worked together in the beginning, each had his own career, and each has their own legacy. The President is Max Keilwerth’s legacy.
So you’re selling your Klingsor Thomas. I must say that I’m not surprised, since you mentioned that that was your plan from the beginning. I haven’t figured out how to navigate the Swedish site so I can’t find it. Do you want to post the link so that I can take a look at it?