Update June 2024: Although all the info contained in this article is now on the Hohner President page of the Bassic Sax website, I have purposely left this here since it was the article that first ID’d the Transitional phase of horns and included a chart. The comments below were also worth saving. For a full overview of the brand however, do check out the Hohner page on Bassic Sax.
I’m literally weeks behind in checking my emails, so when I finally opened my email program yesterday, I was excited to find a link to this eBay auction. It turned out to be a transitional Hohner President alto sax. It is serial # 10737, which would make it circa 1961.
Source: maximilian1287 on eBay.de
If you’ve subscribed to my weblog for a while you know that I’ve been writing about, and researching the Hohner President saxophones for years. These saxophones built by Max Keilwerth are just as good as (better?) the more famous ones built by Max’s brother Julius, but have generally not: 1. Received the recognition they deserved, and 2. Been researched and examined to see how they evolved over their 20 year production run.
In order to increase the sax-playing community’s knowledge about these fine, Max Keilwerth-made horns, I created:
- A Hohner President page on my website, which explores and illustrates the horn’s history and evolution.
- A series of articles on this weblog that I add to as things come up.
- As well as what is most likely the largest image gallery of Hohner President saxophones on the ‘Net. (With more images upcoming soon.)
This morning’s eBay find is exciting because it adds further information into the vat of knowledge about Hohner President saxophones. The photos provided of this transitional Hohner President alto sax show all the sides of the horn, and all its key features.
Note that it has the new style of G# key, and is keyed to high F#…
Source: maximilian1287 on eBay.de
While at the same time having rolled tone holes…
Source: maximilian1287 on eBay.de
Despite its older feature of rolled tone holes, it sports the new style bell to body brace…
Source: maximilian1287 on eBay.de
Despite the new-style bell to body support brace, this transitional Hohner President alto sax still has a D/D# trill key…
Source: maximilian1287 on eBay.de
I had previously done up a chart that illustrated the obvious changes that occurred at approximately the 12XXX stage of the Hohner President. Using that chart as a building block, I’ve now added the very early, as well as the transitional and late-model Hohner President saxophones to the matrix. Please note, this is a work in progress, and once finalized, will be published on the Hohner President page on my website.
| Serial # | Tone Holes | G# Key | Bell to Body Brace | D/D# Trill Key | G# Trill Key | High F# Key | Octave Lever |
| Pre 25XX | Bevelled or straight | Wider on horn side & plain | Straight with 2 posts joined together | Present | Present | N/A | Shaped like the butt end of a rifle |
| 25XX – 12XXX | Rolled | Wider on horn side & plain | Straight with 2 posts joined together | Present | Present from 2200 – 4500 | Optional 45XX onwards | Shaped like the butt end of a rifle |
| 107XX-12XXX
**Transitional Horns |
Rolled, straight, or combo | Wider on horn side & plain, or Hohner logo & thinner on horn side | Straight with 2 posts joined together, or arched metal | Present or not | N/A | Optional: | Shaped like the butt end of a rifle, or like an oval with a bit taken out for left thumb rest |
| 13XXX onwards | Straight | Hohner logo & thinner on horn side | Arched metal | N/A | N/A | Present | Oval shape with a bit taken out for left thumb rest |
Getting back to the transitional Hohner President alto saxophone currently for sale on the German eBay site, this is how the seller describes it:
HOHNER “President ” versilbert, Becher innen vergoldet…. Original-Zustand unglaublich gut erhalten… voller fetter Klang,leichtgängige Mechanik..Hoch-Fis . Versilberung 100% erhalten ,keine Beulen oder Lötstellen etc…. bestimmt ein Exemplar in einzigartigem Bestzustand !!!!Original-Fotos…Koffer,stabil, gepflegt . . Das Saxophon wurde von Fachwerkstatt überholt und exakt eingestellt! ……es wurden für 600.- € alle Verschleißteile Kork ,Polster, Filz und zum teil Federn …. erneuert und dann nicht mehr gespielt.
Helen translate says:
Silver plated Hohner “President”, with gold plating inside [the bell]… Original condition, unbelievably well maintained. Full, fat, tone; smooth key action; with high F#. Silver plating still 100% intact; no dents or solder repairs, etc. This is certainly an example in exceptionally top condition!!! Original photos… Case is sturdy and cared for. The saxophone was overhauled by a professional workshop and set-up to exact standards. All wearing parts: pads, corks, felts, and some springs, were replaced for €600. Reconditioned, and then no longer played.
Yes, this does appear to be a minty horn. Here are the rest of the pics of this transitional Hohner President alto saxophone…
There are only a few days left in this auction, since it is scheduled to end on March 7. Unfortunately the seller will only ship to Germany, so if you don’t live there, or have family or friends who will take delivery of this lovely horn for you, you are likely SOL. :sol:
If however, you do have the opportunity to bid on this fine transitional Hohner President alto sax, you have to start your bids at €1,150.00. I can tell you that at the time of writing no one had bid on this sax yet. I wonder if we’ll see it again, or if it does sell at this price. This will be an interesting auction to watch.
Update: This instrument was re-listed, but then vanished off eBay before the auction ended. The seller’s feedback listings do not show it either.
Hello Theo ,Thanks for your response .Glad to know that there are people who appreciate the Hohner President as much as I do .I tried changing the necks and found that the new neck went into the older sax with a bit of difficulty, which means that there is a vey, very small difference in circumference .As for the tone ,the newer neck did not produce the identical tone of the older neck .My idea in buying another President Tenor of the same vintage was to use the new neck on my older sax as the old neck was slightly damaged .I had even posted a notice on SOTW wanting to buy an old Hohner neck or even a complete horn of similar vintage .But There were no offers .The newer sax I bought was on German Ebay until about 4 months ago although it was sold more than one and a half years ago.There were several photos too.I will definitely post all the relevant photos in a few days time.BTW .Do you have a Hohner President Tenor of the same vintage or do you know of any one who has an old neck for it . You can hear and see my old Hohner if you go to YOUTUBE as I have uploaded 3 tunes recorded on it. Go to YOUTUBE and enter KUMAR MOLLIGODA -DONT IT MAKE MY BROWN EYES BLUE .The other songs are ALL OF ME and THE WAY WE WERE .Would like your comments .Thanks.
Helo Kumar,
nice to hear from another Hohner President fan, you have a beautiful sound on your recordings.
At the moment I have no spare Hohner tenor necks.
On the difference between your Hohners this picture might be informative.
http://bassic-sax.info/4images/details.php?image_id=13905
You can see the necks of three Presidents tenors I use and they are all different.
The top one is from before the Hohner period (1949). It has a nice sound, but at the moment the saxophone has an issue with one bent axis, which I still have to repair.
The middle one is from around 1955, I use this tenor as my main instrument as it has a wonderful sound with a Francois Louis mouthpiece and sounds like a chain saw with a Dukoff crystallite.
Both instruments have a large dynamical range.
The last one is softer, I use it for classical music.
When you look at the position of the first octave opening they are all different.
I guess this to be a part of the different characters they have.
I am looking forward to your pictures.
Hi there Theo.
Check out what I wrote to Kumar about the neck arch of your horns, and the sound of mine vis-à-vis his. I’m thinking that my 104XX very much is more like your 131XX. Interesting.
I find what you say about your 26XX horn interesting. I can’t even imagine a Hohner with a Dukoff sounding like a chain saw. I play mine with a Dukoff S7, and I can still play classical music. How is that possible? Sure, pads with no resos will not reflect any sound, and cause a dark-sounding horn to sound even darker, but a Dukoff S mouthpiece able to play in a classical setting? :wtf: Really? :nuclear:
Hi Helen,
I will test my 131xx with a Dukoff, never thought of the combination.
We could start a society for classical Dukoff appreciation (SCDA), as part of the NASA.
That Kumar and I found changes in the sound of the Hohner presidents through the numbers is not strange.
Every saxophone design is tweaked to “improve” it or to adapt to fashion.
It is a bit strange that it goes from a chain saw to a pitch black horn. :cuckoo:
My guess is that the last Hohner Presidents where made as different from the Yamaha’s as possible.
It is only a guess. :top:
Last weekend I ws in Belgium at a lecture of Francois Louis. He answered questions for two hours.
He thought for a few decades on the mechanics of the saxophone sound and really knows his stuff.
The saxophone teachers present thought that a Francois Louis mouthpiece was challenging for classical music.
At the next SCDA meeting we should discuss a local missionary post. :wtf:
Now I am going to plya Bach with a Runyon quantified 6M (one of the last, tweaked to sound like a King super 20). :saxplayer:
:roflmao: Love that idea. I’m sure we could have at least a few members. :whip:
It is interesting how the President’s core tone changed over the production run. I don’t see how this can be written off as simply a matter of differences between handmade instruments.
Based on your photos we know the neck changed, it is a fair assumption that the bore design changed as well. Clearly Max Keilwerth was going for a different type of tone than what was being produced at the time.
Brighter-sounding horns were becoming more popular. Even the Mark VIs were changing, and I’m not sure what the JK’s were doing tone-wise ATT. At this point I’m surmising he was trying to perhaps carve out a niche for these instruments. But of course that is only a guess.
Hello Kumar
I’m sorry I’ve not been part of the conversation until now. I’ve haven’t been feeling well the last few days.
Thank you for contributing to this important Hohner discussion.
Kumar, I totally agree with you. The price was/is way too high, which is why the auction ended with 0 bidders. That said, the seller re-listed with the same price again. :duh: Some people don’t learn. Let’s see if someone comes along willing to pay that, or if the seller decides to keep the horn for himself, or eventually drops the price to something more reasonable. There’s an alto in Greece that’s been for sale for over a year for $899.99. The seller is so far steadfastly refusing to drop his price. It’s only a few serial numbers different from this one, and it too is a transitional horn.
Yes please do send me photos of both your Hohner President tenors. I would very much like to use them in my gallery. You can send them to my gmail account: bassic.sax.ca@gmail.com
I find it interesting what you write about the differences between your long-time 61XX tenor, and your new 81XX. I have a number of Hohner tenor saxes in my gallery that fall into that serial number range. Other than finish differences, and perhaps a high F# key here or there, there seem to be no obvious structural differences. That’s of course because the horns are seen in isolation, and no one has commented on differences by comparing/contrasting 2 like you have. What this means to me is that the Hohner underwent some design changes in both neck and body during their production run—even before the more major changes around the 10XXX range.
Theo’s photo that he linked to of the 3 necks is a great example of how Hohner changed the neck during President’s production run. It’s interesting that in the photo the 2 Hohner necks (the bottom 2), do appear to have a different angle. The 131XX looks to arch higher–in addition to having the octave vent in a different place.
I’m really happy that you were able to get your original neck repaired. Given the damage it sustained, it is really remarkable. I remember when you described the damage to me, I was sick in my stomach about it. I couldn’t imagine how something like that would ever be right again. Well done. Matt is a great guy, who has a wealth of knowledge and is willing to share it with people. There are so few people like him around. He is a gem in the saxophone world.
I listened to your YouTube recordings. I have to tell you, the difference in tone between your Hohner President and mine (104XX) is incredible. Differences between players, and mouthpieces, reeds, and ligatures could never explain the sound differences that I hear. Like Theo describes his 131XX sounding, my 104XX is much “softer”—I would call it darker, with much more core tone present. Yes, it would be perfect for classical music. For jazz, rock, or blues…not so much.
I love your tone Kumar, and I hope that the repair you did allows you to achieve that same sound again. It would be a shame to not have that again. You are a wonderful player, with a wonderful-sounding horn. I so much enjoy having you contribute to my website, and I’m looking forward to seeing the photos of your horns.
Be well….helen
Hi Helen,
Good to see you and your ordinateur again en form.
:toast:
paul
Thanks Paul.
Nice to see you here are as well. You’d been MIA for a while. I was worried about you, and was going to drop you a note. Glad you popped up again. How are you doing these days?
Do forgive me ,it should be ,NO D+ TRILL KEY .
Sorry Helen ,I made a mistake in the earlier comment .I have said that there is no G+ key ,it should be there is no D+ key.
Dear Helen ,thanks for the post on Hohner Alto Sax .First of all I must say the price is too exhorbitant..When my original Hohner President Tenor ( which I used to do my recordings on youtube ) got damaged I SEARCHED AND FOUND ANOTHER similar horn on German Ebay and bought it for 699 Euros .The serial number is 8147 and is in good condition except for the two sides of the bell being badly scratched due to a damaged sax stand .The serial number probably indicates that its around 1960 While my original President is no.6168 and probably 1958. I expected the new horn to be exactly like the older one but I was disappointed as the new President was slightly different in some aspects .The new sax feels bigger in the hand and the key spacing feels slightly different .The neck is different in that the bend in the neck is higher than the older one so I found the emboucher to be slightly uncomfortable .How ever it has the rolled tone holes ,same g+ key ,same bell to body brace ,same engraving same gold washed bell ,,How ever There is no G+ trill key on both saxes and the older sax has silver keys and satin silver body while the new one is completely silver.A police band musician from Australia (SOTW Friend) informed me that he has a Hohner President Tenor without the rolled tone holes and with a different sound unlike mine .He was planning to sell it as he was disappointed with the tone .I can send you photographs of both saxes if you would want them for your Hohner page .I also found an old page from a price catalog of La Fleur saxes from the sixties .I hve decided to sell the new President horn as I have managed to repair the damage to the neck of my older sax. Did the repair by myself with a bit of advice from Matt Stohrer.Wish you all the best .Kumar Molligoda
Dear Kumar,
Thank you for your story, it is very informative.
Max Keilwerth made some changes to the neck of the (Hohner) President tenor in his life.
I would love to see a picture with both necks in it, if possible.
Have you tried the sound when changing the necks?
Best wishes, Theo