A few days ago a member of the Woodwind Forum, brought this Triumpf tenor saxophone to the attention of the forum members. Kevin wasn’t necessarily wanting to get into a discussion about who made the stencil, but just wanted to point out a very pretty, vintage saxophone.
Source: schmuzel2006
This silver plated, full-pearl-model tenor, is indeed a stencil, and I was immediately trying to figure out who made it.
Triumpf was not a saxophone maker, and the name of Oscar Adler’s, top of the line model, Triumph, was spelled differently. Also, the Adler Triumph had 11 extra keys, and was keyed up to high G—things that this tenor sax clearly is lacking.
Source: schmuzel2006
The shape of the right pinkie keys, as well as the low C key mechanism, stuck me as being very JK-like.
Source: schmuzel2006
Before WWII, while the Julius Keilwerth company was still in Graslitz, JK’s latter King models, as well as their early Toneking and The New King saxophones, had their chromatic F# tone holes located on the back of the body tube.
Also, this style of key guards was something that JK used on those same models.
As far as the mother of pearl key touches goes, JK used these on both their Solo and Soloist model of Tonekings.
The other thing that immediately struck me as being JK-like on this Triumpf tenor, was the octave mechanism.
Source: schmuzel2006
The metal support/spacer brace on the octave lever (on the left side of photo above), is something we see in certain JK horns. Here is the same feature on JK-stencilled Götz alto.
The shape of the left pinkie cluster of the Triumpf tenor also is a dead-ringer for that of the Toneking Solo model—it however, only has MOP on the G# key, not the entire cluster like we see below.
Source: schmuzel2006
The seller is not a sax player, and can’t provide any real information. He/she says:
Triumpf Saxophon mit Koffer
Alter schätze ich um 1930
83 cm lang
Das Instrument ist nicht verbeult, es sind für mich keine Schäden zu erkennen. Habe extra viele Fotos gemacht damit man alles erkennen kann.
Kenne mich mit Musikinstrumenten nicht aus, versuche aber alle Fragen so gut es geht zu beantworten. Funktion wurde nicht geprüft.
Ungereinigter Fund-Zustand!
Helen Translate says:
Triumpf saxophone with case.
I approximate the age to be around 1930.
83 cm [32.6 in]
The instrument is not dented, and I don’t see any damage. I took extra photos so that you can see all of it.
I don’t know anything about musical instruments, but will try to answer all questions as best as I can. The horn was not tested.
It is in the condition it was found. It has not been cleaned.
It might not have been cleaned, but it is in remarkably clean condition…
Source: schmuzel2006
Although the seller doesn’t provide a serial #, nor does he provide a photo of the right thumb rest area of the horn, my best guess is that this is JK stencil of either their Toneking Solo, or Soloist model. Furthermore, based on the photos of the horns that I’ve been able to collect to date, I’m guessing it would be from the 12XXX to 16XXX serial number range.
But I’ve been wrong before, and this might not be a JK at all. I leave it up to you to decide if I’m right or wrong.
If you like mysteries, or if you know for sure what this is, and you think this tenor would make a fine addition to your horn stable, you have until June 29 to get your bids in. This Triumpf tenor currently has 7 bids on it, with the high bid being €101.00—that’s $127.01, according to xe.com.
Hello, looks like late modell of F.X.Huller.I have one,plays very well.Neck has microtuner same like FXH.
Regards Vaclav
Hi Helen,
there is another Triumpf horn on ebay : item 223374371937
The neck has the man-in-the-moon bracket, which either isn’t the original or it’s a Buescher!
I tried to find the auction, but couldn’t. Even under ended or sold listings. I tried through the number as well as Triumpf saxophone. Did you happen to save it? Could you send me the link?
Update: No surprises here. This horn sold with problem. By auction’s end there were 32 bids on this mystery tenor, with the winner walking away with it for only €408.00.
Update: Apparently there is not serial # on this horn. It is stamped 4R at the top—whatever “the top” means. This is the question and answer that happened about the sax:
Frage: Hallo, hat das Sax eine Seriennummer? Ist sonst noch irgendetwas graviert? Ist der Schallbecher innen vergoldet/messingfarben? Woher stammt das Instrument? Weiß der Vorbesitzer etwas darüber? Danke fündige Beantwortung der Fragen MfG Jprbr 27.06.12
Antwort: Hallo, eine Seriennummer ist leider nicht drauf! Der Schallbecher ist innen vergoldet. Mir ist gesagt worden, das es ein Tenorsaxophon ist. Oben ist noch “4R” eingraviert. Das ist alles was ich dazu sagen kann. Viele Grüße
Has anybody else tried to bid on this horn ? I tried but got the red warnings (in German of course) that I presume to mean unable to ship to my country (Australia) ?
Oh and Helen, do you agree that if a Tenor of this vintage does not have a G# cluster and RH bell key guards that are IDENTICAL to those of all SMLs (which this one doesn’t), then it CANNOT have been made by SML ? I agree with your Keilwerth-connection assessment.
As for Hohner President Tenors, one has popped up on the English speaking Ebay (hooray !):- item # 150844627133 currently at $294.57 with three and a half days to go. Good luck…
Hey there Bob. Nice to see you again…
I haven’t bid on the horn, but… the auction says that the seller will ship “Weltweit”, meaning worldwide. But… I see the drop-down menu for countries that shows the shipping prices, only lists European ones. :scratch:
If a person was interested in the sax, I guess an email to the seller might be worth a shot. No guarantee that the seller can read/write English though…
I don’t know enough SML horns Bob, to intelligently comment on your question about the left pinkie cluster. I can tell you that we talked about this horn over on the Woodwind Forum, and I offered up my JK theory there. Pete Hales, who is sax historian, participated in that discussion, and he never raised a possible SML connection—despite his being very familiar with the brand.
BTW, thanks for the tip on the Hohner President. That’s definitely a project horn, meaning, it needs an overhaul/restoration.
Hi Helen, how about if it was by Hammerschmidt ? Some of the photos on your site (especially the triple sax photos) look like they have come from their era of same-looking pearl key touches…
Nope no Hammerschmidt. The reason: it doesn’t have 3 octave keys—and specifically, 2 in the body tube. Hammerschmidt Klingsors, and all Hammerschmidt stencils, had this feature.
Bob, it is in no way, shape or form an SML. Not even an extremely early one. Sorry I didn’t catch your post earlier, but I’ve been busy.
Pete, you have me confused with Joe Vellano; I agree that it cannot be SML, but was was suggesting Hammerschmidt, instead of JK (if they are differentiated) ?…
Hi Helen and Kumar,
I have bought several wind instruments on ebay and would only consider doing so if I were extremely confident that I knew exactly what an item is, why I want it, and be prepared to invest additional time and money to bring it to a condition that is useful. I would never consider the purchase of an instrument intended for primary use without some sort of approval period or agreement to adjust the instrument to my specifications, and the realistic expectation that such agreements could be honored.
That’s just my opinion.
paul
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the neck pointing backwards. Is this more common than I imagine?
Hi there Russ. Oh didn’t you know, I’ve been playing incorrectly for years. 😉
Seriously though, it’s a running joke among sax players how many times eBay sellers either have the mouthpiece turned reed side up, or the necks turned backwards like this when they sell saxes. The mouthpieces I could see, since they have a 50/50 chance of getting it wrong, but the necks? What, have they never seen a sax player on TV, video, or heaven forbid, even live?
Sml
Interesting Joe. I hadn’t considered that brand, because I’m not that familiar with it. I’ll have to do some digging and see what I can find, and see if it sways me off my JK theory.
HELLO HELLEN. I AM INTERESTED IN BIDDING FOR THIS HORN. I HAVE NEVER DONE ANY BIDDING BEFORE SO COULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME IN DETAIL WHAT I HAVE TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT .I HAVE A RELATION IN GERMANY SO I COULD ASK FOR THE HORN TO BE SENT TO THAT ADDRESS IN GERMANY. ALSO PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW MUCH I SHOULD BID IN ORDER TO WIN THE AUCTION . PLEASE TREAT THIS AS URGENT.PLEASE EXCUSE ME FOR TROUBLING YOU. KUMAR.
Hello Kumar.
I have only bought 1 thing before on eBay, and that wasn’t a saxophone. It was a pamphlet.
Since there is no Buy It Now price on the saxophone, there is no way to guarantee that you’ll win. There are ways to improve your chances, but more on that later.
Firstly, if you haven’t already done so, sign up with eBay. You can do so with eBay.com, or the eBay in whatever country you live in. Your eBay membership allows you to sign into eBay from other countries. (Something you will need to do if you want to bid on this sax, because it is available only on eBay.de.)
I’m going to ask Mal-2—or any other of the readers here if they happen to see this, and have bought a horn through eBay before—to answer the rest of your questions further, because he buys and sells through eBay regularly.
Best of luck!
MANY THANKS HELEN FOR THE REPLY,I CAN REGISTER WITH E=BAY .I AM IN SRI LANKA .I WILL NEED TO KNOW ABOUT PAYMENT TERMS AND FROM WHERE IT IS BEING SHIPPED BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WHETHER IT STILL RETAINS THE ORIGINAL TONE AFTER ALL THE YEARS IN A BOX .I DO HAVE A KIELWORTH STENCIL [HOHNER PRESIDENT] SO I AM HOPING IT WILL SOUND THE SAME .I WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINION ABOUT THIS BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BEEN PLAY TESTED .FINALLY I WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINION AS TO WHETHER TO BUY A HORN LIKE THIS .I EXPECT YOU TO BE VERY FRANK BECAUSE I VALUE YOUR OPINION.THANKS.
Well Kumar, I don’t think you’ll be able to find out much about the sax, since the seller isn’t a player. Unless you happen to know a sax player in the city where the sax is (Blaibach, Germany), who can go and play it for and report on its condition, you’re really buying blindly.
I can tell you, that even if this Triumpf is a Keilwerth, I’m not sure it will sound much like your Hohner. I own both a Hohner—which was built by Max Keilwerth, not Julius, so it’s not a JK stencil—as well as a Julius Keilwerth stencil of their famous Toneking. The sound of these 2 saxophones is very, very different. The Hohner is much darker, and by that I mean it has much more of its core tone present, than the Toneking. The Toneking has more overtones, and is brighter in its sound. (Check out this article I wrote on how I use these terms, since different people use them differently.)
I find that the Hohner takes so much more air than the J. Keilwerth that it is amazing. The Hohner nearly takes as much as my bass when its not leaking. I’m not exaggerating. The Hohner uses a crazy amount of air. This may be what in part contributes to the President’s darker sound, but I’m just speculating here. By the way, my Hohner is from 1961, and my Keilwerth is from 1957.
As far as to buy a horn like this, that would really depend on your circumstances Kumar. If you want a horn that plays when you get it, I wouldn’t take the risk. If you are prepared to spend the money on a full overhaul/restoration, then you might want to risk it, but you still won’t know exactly what you’re getting tone-wise.
If you really like the Hohner, and you don’t want to change, you might just want to get yourself another one. I don’t know of any dealers who have any right now, but they do appear on the German eBay site all the time. There is a dealer who is a member of SOTW who I email regularly, who gets them in sometimes. He’s a standup guy, and has a good reputation. At least he is in the US, and will be able to write to you in English. His prices are also good, compared to some dealers, who have slightly higher prices. If you want, I can get you hooked up with him, but that would only be if you decide to go the dealer route for a new-to-you horn. (No pressure Kumar. I’m just offering you another option to think about.) He also has Julius Keilwerth Tonekings and The New Kings regularly as well. I’d have to look up the website, but there are always sound samples up of the various horns. Very handy for comparison.
In any event, you have some time yet to think things over. There are still 3 days left on the auction.
Thanks once again for all the attention you have paid to me.IT’S GREATLY APPRECIATED.Going by your comments/advice I too think that it’s a blind attempt as no mention has been made of it’s playability and no serial number is mentioned .Yes ,another Hohner would be a good option .My Hohner’s serial number is 6168 and is around 1960.It’s my regular Tenor and is still in good condition.I did come across a post on SOTW about someone finding a closet Hohner on Craiglist and that too a gold plated one in the States at a cheap price.How ever getting one from Germany would be easier than from the States.I am an amateur Tech so I could do a reasonable overhaul as I have been doing the maintenance of my horns all these years.I would be happy if you would put me in touch with your dealer friend in the States or some one in Germany.I would like to send some tracks from my CD recorded on my Hohner if I had an e-mail address.I’ve had some wonderful comments from my SOTW friends about this recording.All the best to you and thanks once again.
Hi Kumar.
I have sent you an email. If it didn’t arrive, check your Junk Mail folder.
I’ll send you the contact info I have for my SOTW friend via email.
Actually I haven’t bought through eBay in years. I’ve SOLD that way more recently, but given the way I’ve been treated the last couple times, I will not be doing that again. Sorry I can’t be of more assistance here, but I think eBay is now all about skimming money from every stage of every transaction while offering protection ONLY to buyers at the expense of sellers — and if you aren’t a Power Seller, they don’t give a damn about you.