Two different Buffet baris: Both with some serious body image and function issues
I’m not even sure how I ended up finding these two sad examples of antique baris, but a couple of days ago I happened across two examples of horns that not only have seen better days, but better centuries.
We all know that the bigger the instrument, the more abuse it takes. It is more likely to get knocked into things. More likely to get banged around during shipping. Even while in a shop getting repaired, the larger an instrument is the more likely it is to leave with a scratch or two more than it came in with.
As baritone players, when looking for a good, used, pro level horn, we know that more often than not we are going to end up with something that shows that has been play A LOT, rather than something that looks truly clean and pristine.
With bari prices has expensive as they are, players coming to bari for the first time might be tempted to try something a little cheaper, therefore older, and in worse repair.
This is where today’s two Buffet Crampon Evette & Schaeffer baris come in. If we had a saxophone show, like they have dog shows, neither of these would ever take home a Best In Show. Hell, these two would be disqualified because of their limping. 😉
Now before you think I’m being too hard on either the sellers or the baris that they’re selling, just try to keep an open mind, and read this article to its conclusion. I promise you it is salient to today’s reality of the saxophone market.
Antique vs. vintage in sax land
Before we go any further, let’s refresh our memory and differentiate between vintage and antique. In collector’s circles, an antique is generally regarded as an object made 100 years ago or older. Vintage is a bit more slippery. In saxophone land, vintage generally means a pro horn made pre-1980s.
To help you make sense of when these Buffet baris were made, you can use Mike Duchstein’s serial number chart.
Buffet Bari #1
Enter Buffet Crampon Evette Schaeffer bari 10XXX. It is being sold by a music store in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
The store describes the bari this way:
This listing is for a Eb baritone sax made by the Buffet Company of France. It is the famous “Evette-Scaeffer” model. The serial number is in the 10XXX series placing production in 1894. This saxophone is being sold “AS IS”. It needs a complete restoration including removal of dents, refitting of keys, cleaning, replacement of pads and corks, etc. Most parts are original. Has double octave key and plays up to Eb. This work would need to be done by a professional tech. This instrument could also be used for parts. . This sax will NOT play as is. No case. Fast and Free USA shipping with insurance and tracking. Contact us with any questions.
Well, I did try to contact them to ask them some questions. Sadly though their eBay account is set up to not accept any queries. Really?
Had I been able to ask them any questions, I would have asked them things like:
- What is up with that neck? You write in the ad: “Most parts are original.” The neck is clearly not. Whatever kind of horn it comes from, the brace is on the side, not the bottom. Also, what kind of sax has that kind of long, straight neck that could have been cannibalized? I can think of a few, but I’m curious to hear their thoughts, and perhaps the dimensions.
- Any evidence of buffing anywhere? Horns from 1893 were not lacquered I believe. IIRC, the brochures I have come across show the finishes available as silver plate or bare brass.
- What is the length of this horn from the top of the upper bow, to the bottom of the bottom bow? This will tell us if this is a LP or a HP horn.
Oh, in case you’re interested in this Heniz 57 of a bari, the current bid price is $300.00 US. Yup, at the time of writing 3 people had bid on this already. Why? Lamp material?
Buffet Bari # 2
Moving on to Buffet Crampon Evette & Schaeffer bari 29029. Here we have a slightly newer instrument, but it too raises some questions in my mind.
The seller describes this rough-looking bari like this:
RARE Buffet Crampon Evette & Schaeffer baritone saxophoneYou find many altos and tenors of this guy, but rarely does a Bari come along.
Serial number dates to 1926
Horn is sold “as-is”
Original lacquer at roughly 60%, a beautiful honey bronze.
Many spots where the copper in the brass is coming through.I recommend a complete overhaul to make this baby sing properly again.
I have used this horn on recordings last year, and the sound is not obtainable by any modern horn.
Massive fat sound. They don’t make metal like this anymore.
Still may have the original pads from the 20’s. They are long in need of replacement.
Many ugly solder points, some posts are off, and the soldered tone holes probably have a few leaks.
Dings abound, two big ones about mid way down the horn, and the other at the bottom, but those can be removed.A good technician can restore this horn.
The only work I ever had done on it was to move the neck strap loop down to a more balanced position. This was performed by an expert technician.
Also had the neck cork redone a few years ago, and it’s still in great shape.Yes, I played it in this condition.
But the bigger the horn, the more forgiving it is to get a sound, so I was able to get it to cook for the last 10 years.
Many people wondered how I was able to play it. I guess I’m just used to playing old horns from the 20’s.
A spring popped on the top stack recently (Bb key), and I’ve rigged an elastic hair tie to make it functional again,
as I needed the horn on a gig this week, so you can play it out of the box.No mouthpiece, no strap / harness
Comes with the ProTec case in the photos. It’s in super shape and retails for $400+The guy I bought this from was selling it because he was shifting into tango dancing.
“I’d rather dance with the ladies than play for them.”If you’re ready for the big sound, this baby is ready for you.
new lowered price. Priced to go!
This seller was open to receiving questions, and was good enough to answer the ones I posed to them. Again, my questions were around the pitch of the horn.
If you take a look at the photo of the bari in the ProTech case, you’ll notice that there is quite a bit of space that has to be filled with spacers. When I put any of my 3 baris in my ProTech case, I do have to use a bit of a spacer, but nothing like this. This tells me that the horn is really short compared to modern horns.
This is what I asked:
Hi there. I was wondering, is this bari actually a low pitch (LP) horn (A=440) like we use today? Or is it a high pitch horn?
I ask because I have seen a number of Buffet Evette & Schaeffer baris that are HP, and there seems to be a fair amount of space that you’ve had to fill with a spacer in your ProTech case with a block.
I have 2 baris that I put in a ProTech case–a Mark VI and a Martin–and while there is some space in the case, neither requires a space as big as the one your horn does.
Would you be able to measure the instrument from the top of the top bow, to the bottom of the bottom bow? That would answer the question with 100% certainty.
Thank you.
And this is the reply that I got:
Hi there.
Thanks for the interest.
I’ll gladly measure when I get back In town on the 23rd.
I’m thinking low pitch, just because I have used the horn with many different projects over the past few years, and I’m pushing the mouthpiece in all the way to get Iain tune. If she was hi pitch, wouldn’t that make her even more sharp than she already was supposed to be? Maybe someone put in a longer neck? Who knows? Evette was supposedly good about stamping low or high, so I’ll definitely get back …
Mmm… Interesting. We know one thing, you CANNOT fix HP saxophones by adding a longer neck. Period. Full stop.
Changing the length of the neck changes the length of bore, and whole bunch of other things that I can’t begin to describe—since I’m neither a saxophone designer nor a tech, and really don’t begin to understand all the physics that go into the conical bore. I will leave that to the experts to explain.
My limitations however, don’t change the science. I wish they did.
What is the actual difference in length between a HP and LP baritone?
This is a question I can easily answer, since I just happen to have have a HP Buffet bari from 1886. My Buffet Crampon (Evette Schaeffer) bari is a HP horn, and I knew it from the day I saw its first photos. I bought it to give it a home, since its previous caretaker was at a stage in his life where he was looking to find it a good home while he still could.
My HP bari is 95cm from the top of its upper bow to the bottom of its lower bow.
I then measured my Selmer Mark VI bari:
My Mark VI is 100 cm from the top of its upper bow to the bottom of its lower bow.
This means that the difference in length between a HP Buffet bari and a modern LP horn is approx. 5 cm. And as I pointed out already, just because you add a 5 cm longer neck doesn’t mean you’re suddenly going to be able to play with a modern orchestra or band.
So what’s the point here?
I am first and foremost a baritone saxophone player, and understand the financial realities that bari players face in everything from buying reeds, stands, harnesses and other sundry accessories, to the cash outlay for their horns. The fact is being a baritone player costs more than being an alto, tenor, or even soprano player. It’s the economies of scale playing themselves out, and hitting sax players right in their wallets.
The chances that any of us started as bari sax players is pretty small. More likely than not we started on either alto or tenor, and then at some point transitioned to bari, or added bari to our horn stable.
When we went about looking for our first bari, who reading this article wasn’t rather shocked by their prices? Who here wasn’t tempted by a beater horn, and thought: I could get my tech to fix it up a bit short of an overhaul. Or maybe: I could fix it myself with some stuff from Music Medic.
The problem of course is that there are few really good baris available at any given time, and really good ones cost some serious coin. So your options are:
- Save up money and buy a good, solid, baritone from a reputable dealer like PM Woodwind, Get A Sax, World Wide Sax, et al. That is always the safest way to go. Reputable shops also have return policies in case you don’t love your “new to you” horn.
- Wait for a horn to come up locally that you can play-test first. Yah, good luck with that. Good baris are scarce as hen’s teeth, so you might be in for a really long wait. That being said, I found one of mine that way. Right place/right time and all that…
- Buy a new POS Chinese bari through an online site for just over $1,000 US. All I can say is: I wouldn’t recommend it. If you’re a serious bari player, you will not be happy. Perhaps the very occasional doubler on bari won’t notice all its faults, but over time you’ll have spent more on adjustments and repairs than you spent on the horn itself.
- Take your chances and buy a well-used, or beater bari through an online auction, and either get it professionally overhauled, or attempt to fix it yourself.
If you opt for #4, that’s fair enough. Not everyone has the cash to get a primo baritone sax from a dealer. There are however, some serious pitfalls to look out for.
These two Buffet baris are a good reminder of arguably the biggest pitfall to be aware of: making sure that whatever horn you buy is eventually playable with a modern band, and is tuned to A=440, AKA, LP.
Probably a decade ago now, I got an email from a fellow who sent me photos of a stunningly beautiful Pierret Super Artiste bari sax he bought online, only to discover it was indeed a HP horn. This to date, is the only HP Pierret I have ever heard of.
Wrapping this all up then
If you’re looking for a bari sax to play, only one of these Buffet baris shows any promise. That is of course bari # 2, #29029 circa 1926. The seller has set opening bids to start at $899.99 US—which is why this bari has been on eBay for a few auction cycles already. The current auction is scheduled to end in 6 days.
Is Buffet bari #29029 a LP horn? Possibly. Whoever is seriously interested needs to get the seller to measure it to confirm the length to be sure. Once that’s been confirmed, then a whole bunch of other questions need to be answered as well.
I have written an extensive article on used saxophone shopping, and that might be helpful as well.
The good new is, if you’re open to buying a beater, vintage bari, there are far more out there than there are pristine examples. This means that this nearly-antique Buffet has lots of competition.
I can help you. i know that this was done almost a year ago but i am the person who now owns Bari #1. if you still have any questions then you can ask me.
Hey there Jordan. Welcome to my website! Thanks so much for chiming in.
I have lots of questions. The first that comes to mind is: Is it playable these days?
The second is: What’s up with that neck? Did you get a different one? What kind? From what horn? If not, and you use the neck that is shown with the horn, how do you do that? The angle looks pretty awful–in that there is no angle to the neck. Oh, and how is/was the horn’s intonation with that neck?
I have a ton of other questions, but I’d be thrilled if you answered these. As a Buffet bari owner myself, I’m just really curious about your bari.
I am actually very glad it didn’t end up in the scrap metal yard. Hopefully it will have a chance to get out and play again one day–if you don’t do so with it already. I am a sucker for a happy ending. 🙂
Yeah it was actually playable when i got it. things happened. its a whole story in itself. i do play it. played it yesterday actually. with the neck. yeah it is weird. never seen anything like that before. i was trying to find information on the instrument which is how i found this post. never found another example. the neck is long and is sensitive. like there is a specific position i have to put the neck for it to play well. i do have the same neck as you see in those pictures. if you want i can send you audio of me playing it. i dont really know how to describe it. if you have any more questions then please feel free to ask.
When comparing the two Baris – from the photos alone, I note that there are a few things that would tell me to stay away from them unless obtainable at a price much less than that asked for by the seller. Bari#1, if obtainable for under $200 US may be something to work with – if you want to go that route. At least it has a reasonably low price if you aren’t expecting much to begin with.
Bari #2 being the most questionable of the pair. I say this because of the high asking price and the modern “Made in France 22” stamping below the engraving on this horn.
The engraving of the company name and address on Bari #2 appears as if done freehand and when reviewed against other “Buffet-Crampon” horns of the time appears accurate however back then engraving was not that poorly done.
The engraver’s art was just that “an Art” and done with practiced confidence – not what is reflected in this instruments’ engraving.
See this link for what the engraving of a 100 year old Buffet-Crampon saxophone bell should look like: https://www.saxophone.org/museum/saxophones/specimen/1573/viewAll
Professional engravers and crafts-persons (there were women who worked in the trade back then and whom were very good at it so I won’t use “Crafts-men”) wouldn’t let work like that out their door, they had more self respect than that.
Also, take note of the “Blueish” staining on the bell, that is the result of heat. Heat which is used to anneal the metal for easier shaping, or heat which was used to discolour the instrument AFTER something was done to it. It may have been softened in order to more easily put markings. engravings on it.
Consider the wear patterns on the instrument – a horn nearly 100 years old frequently played would definitely acquire a wear pattern.
Where are the most frequently played keys? where do the players hands rest? where do you rest your instrument against your leg / body / ? where would the previous player’s have rested this instrument. Do any of the marks on the #2 Bari reflect what you would expect from a “well used” instrument? Has the lacquer been rubbed off similar to what a well used instrument of that age would be expected to have.
A lot of cheap Chinese knock-offs /fakes of modern instruments are flooding the market but a lot of brass instruments – especially vintage brass – are being replicated in India and Pakistan where the required metal working skills are still in abundance. What they may not have however is the “Stencil” or template used to lay out the tone holes on the body tube or the engraving machinery used to engrave the bells. They can replicate a vintage or modern instrument in polished brass or copper. The tell for these is that in lacquering it and then trying to age it to replicate a vintage instrument the con-artist would have to heat it to artificially age the lacquer and if done with a torch it will be spotty and un-even and the pads will be cooked, drying them out and turning them a dark brown. Very similar to the close up photo of the pad on Bari #2 – which also looks like the cup was “staked” to try and hold the pad in. No skilled , trained and qualified professional trades-person would effect such a repair. But a fraudster would.
To my eye, Bari #2 may be from the period and it may in fact be a Buffet, – or a buffet knock-off but a lot of what I see says “FAKE” or “ALTERED” to mis-represent what it originally was and to try and get the highest price from an unwary ebay buyer. Frequently these types of instruments will have a phantom bidder – either the vendor themself, or an accomplice – who bids the price up on an ever higher rate until it is astronomical for the actual item being offered. Do they care if they wind up buying the instrument from themselves ? they certainly don’t because the next time the instrument is offered they are sure to make back what they paid ebay in commission and then some.
Instruments then – like now – were made of Brass, Copper, a mixture of Brass and Copper or entirely Nickel Silver unless they had Sterling necks / bells / keys and in some cases a high grade of pure Silver – but these “pure Silver” instruments tended to be the exception not the rule . The top end models were usually Nickel Silver / German Silver and highly engraved.
A note on the metals used and the finishes applied. Instruments made without lacquer were and still are easier to repair because their joints can be readily disassembled / reassembled by desoldering and then chemically treated and buffed to remove the discolouration of heating. Lacquered instruments present a problem to the repair technician because if heated the lacquer is damaged and cannot easily be renewed which means that dented bells, bows and necks cannot simply be removed and replaced with new parts but must be knocked out. This is one of the reasons that Brass and Copper is still used – because they are soft and can be easily knocked back into shape. Nickel silver is a hard metal and must be softened prior to re-work or it WILL crack. Sterling / silver is similar, being “hardened” during manufacture and will crack during rework to remove dents etc unless it is annealed prior to repair work and it must be re-heat-treated afterwards to return it to its’ hardened state.
The solder used on brass and copper has a low melting point and is easily applied – usually without excessive damage to the lacquered areas. Nickel silver instruments use a high temperature silver-solder in their manufacture and repair. Repairing these instruments takes skill and knowledge which is rare today, but these instruments were in fact easier to repair and were more resilient to damage than their brass/copper siblings.
Even back then instruments were lacquered after being made and buffed to a high gloss – usually marketed to / for the masses. The Lacquer used was usually nitro-cellulose based and if poorly made it would become sticky and come off on your hands. (hint if you use model airplane dope thinner you can remove that old lacquer quite easily). Even a good, well made lacquer will eventually come off.
Poorly made or well-made lacquer could also be tinted with powdered metals such as gold and silver and then applied to an instrument however this was considered to be the “Cheap Way” of obtaining a certain look and the better instrument makers usually plated their better wares with silver or gold – even the Nickel Silver ones.
This raises an interesting point when looking at engraving / stamps / serial numbers etc. : Was the engraving / stamping done BEFORE the lacquer / plating was applied or AFTER the lacquer / plating was applied? if done before, the lacquer / plating will cover the markings and the edges will be unbroken, if done afterwards the edges of the lacquer / plating will be cracked and flaking.
Certain of the marks / stamps may have been made after, but they would have been few and small and would have been covered with a clear lacquer to prevent corrosion and the resultant flaking off of the lacquer or plating that comes with corrosion.
It must be remembered that “Artistic Beauty” and “Sound Quality” was the goal that the best instrument makers strived for. They also came out with improvements almost overnight and there was a continual struggle to beat the competition. The old catalogs are excellent places to look for those changes as well as the subtle details such as the joint couplings, key placement and types of material, engraving and finish offered.
The HP / LP markings are well known – as is the fact that instruments made for the European market typically were not marked “HP”, at least not until the production runs became intermixed with instruments destined for the US market and the HP / LP markings went on as soon as the body tube was rolled so that they could be readily identified by the workers making them as well as the people who would be collecting them for shipping to their intended buyers be it a music store, an individual a band or a school.
Patent infringement was also something that got manufacturers into trouble and they paid heft fines. The background on instrument inventions and patents in Europe, the UK and the USA is a whole story in itself and well worthy of exploring at a later date. Suffice it to say that other than original creations which were later patented, few instruments post the late 1880’s/90’s were made without a “Patented” or Pat’t Pending” or “Brevte” marking of some type. The patents included in the instrument may have even been stamped in the area above / below the serial number on the upper end or the lower end of the body tube.
Something that is also to be looked for on any product coming from France is the marking “Brevete S.G.D.G” Breveté” means that the instrument incorporates one or more patents in its’ construction. “S.G.D.G” means San Garantie Du Governement” “Patent without a Government guarantee” a disclaimer required by the government stating that the French government does not guarantee enforcement of the claimed patent.
The repair of “antique” and even high quality “vintage” instruments is truly a specialist repair persons art and trade. Do not expect your local mass-market music shop’s repair technicians to be able to skillfully and professionally repair these instruments beyond simple re-padding and tweaking of keys. They may have a university degree in instrument repair but they have neither the time, interest or in most cases the ability or knowledge gained from old masters that is required to do the job and you do not want to pay them to learn on your prized instrument and ruin it in the process.
Find a specialty repair shop that has both experience and equipment as well as a reputation for excellent work and then you had better be willing to pay what the job is worth to do it correctly.
Other than that, finding an old, small town shop loaded to the roof with tools, old used metal and wood lathes and a crochety old person with one or two youngish assistants may in fact be the best place to go. The person running the shop and doing the work might not have a degree and the shop may appear to you to be a mess and not pristinely clean, but they will more than likely have years of acquired knowledge and skill as well as the patience and appreciation for your instrument and do it right the first time.
That being said, for all of you folks in Vancouver BC Canada based on my experiences over the years I would personally recommend the following repair shops
Chris Startup – Windworks Musical Instrument Repair
2225 Turner Street
Vancouver, BC. V5L 2A5
Tel 604 728-6481
and
Massullo Music
4242-B Hastings Street, Burnaby, B.C.
Canada V5C 2J6
Tel: (604) 294-1777
and to avoid Long-McQuade.
Hey there Steve.
I couldn’t agree more. Finding a speciality shop for your vintage/antique saxophone is paramount. You mention two shops in Vancouver, and both are reputed to do good work. For my 30+ vintage babies, my go-to shop is however,
Matterhorn Music
7788 132 St, Surrey, BC
V3W 0H5
Tel: (604) 596-7616
Over the decade + I have used David’s services, I have NEVER been disappointed, and his work is second to none. My horns have never played better, and he has done an exceptional job restoring some of the most unique collectible and rare saxophones without so much as a scratch to their finish.
He also has the ability to make keys and other parts that look identical to the original. (Like when he made an octave lever for an Adolphe Edouard Sax C-pitched tenor a couple of years ago.) This is vital when parts are missing or broken. In my mind anyway, having this skill is a critical tool in any vintage sax tech’s toolbox.
With regards to the Evette & Schaeffer bari mentioned in this article, I must respectfully completely disagree with your assessment of bari #2 possibly being a knock-off. Evette Schaeffer horns are not nearly popular enough that a company would go through the time, effort, and money to reverse engineer them. There simply is not enough of a demand for them. That’s why we see knock-off Selmers, Yamahas, Yanis, etc. The demand for those horns is there to re-coup the R&D costs.
Regarding the engraving you mention, the link you provide is to alto #6389. According to Michael Duchstein’s serial # chart, that sax is from 1885. This pre-dates even my bari #75XX. However, if you check out the engraving on my bari, it looks nothing like that on the alto, but similar to that on bari #2 from 1929.
As you mention, engraving is an art form, and Evette & Schaeffer was a large company that would have employed more than 1 engraver. Since this is script, and was done in a person’s hand, I would suggest to you that what we’re seeing here are different engravers’ handwriting samples of sorts, in the form of bell engraving.
Regarding what you mention about patents, when I first got my bari, I did a lot of research. Numerous saxophone historians all looked at it an explained to me that the reason it looks so much like an Adolphe Sax bari, is because it was built soon after Sax’s original saxophone patents expired. If you compare the Evette & Schaeffer (Buffet Crampon) saxophones from the 1880s and immediately onwards to those of Adolphe Sax, you will see that they are pretty much identical. They were basically just copies of Sax’s designs, and as the horns in the gallery linked to above indicate, none were patented.
The two Baris do not have water keys. It is a real nuisance to turn ta bari around to get the water out of the pigtail. My guess is that the Couesnon monopole 1 was one of the first baris with such a luxury.
Whats the difference between HP and LP?
About a semi-tone. 😉 No seriously, about a 1/2 a tone. When I play an F# on my HP bari, it reads an F on my tuner.
I found this really good explanation of HP instruments on a repair tech’s website. I don’t know who Gino is, nor do I know where he is. I had never heard of him before, but he does a good job of describing the LP/HP issue in a way that makes things relatively easy to understand.
B/C Gino’s website looks pretty old school, I’m going to save the info here for the future:
a) If the horn was US made before WWII, assume it’s high pitch, unless you have a mark on the horn saying otherwise, like “L,” “LP,” or “Low Pitch.” The exception to this is either Martin or Buescher — I think Buescher, but I don’t remember — because they never made high pitch horns.
b) If the horn is a Czech or German horn made during WWII, it might be pitched at A=435hz (you might see “A870” stamped on the horn).
c) Unless the Evette-Schaeffer is stamped “LP” near the engraving, assume it’s high pitch. The stamp is also very shallow, making it difficult to see.
d) Assume any French-made model made before WWII is high pitch, unless it’s stamped.
e) Dolnet made high pitch horns until almost 1970 and didn’t bother to stamp them.